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Teaching how to code is broken

neil.computer

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Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#161

Post by 908B64B197 »

khendron wrote: post #102
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never met a programmer I respected skill-wise that wouldn't randomly spend a weekend locked in a room solving an esoteric problem they felt they had to solve (for no reason). Over the Christmas holidays everyone at my company writes PoCs or hobby projects, being glad to have some free time away from paid programming in order to enjoy recreational programming. What I'm trying to get at is software engineering i…

When non-tech folks ask me how to learn programming because they want "jump on the money train", I ask them if they ever take the initiative to solve a problem with programming. You don't have to work in tech to do this. For example: Work in an office writing documents and making spreadsheets? Have you ever simplified your job by writing a Word or Excel Macro? Own a smart TV? Have you dug into its features until you…

> learn programming because they want "jump on the money train"

I think this is the best predictor of poor outcome in the field. The devs I've seen that chose the field for the money typically didn't last long and did everything they could to get into a non-technical position (often management). And then, unsurprisingly, fared poorly there as well.

I often see STEM pitched as a way to make money... And really the only people making money out of it are the institution cashing the first-year tuitions checks before they drop out. And that’s not even touching the predatory ISA that bootcamps offer…

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#162

Post by kumarvvr »

Offtopic : I am always annoyed with the use of the word "Broken" in place of more meaningful words (Flawed, Wrong, Malfunctioning, etc.)

Everything is "broken"

The system is "broken" (Flawed / biased / wrong / unfair / unjust)

The garage door opener is "broken" (not working / not operating / faulty)

What is up with that? I see it a lot in movie too. This laptop is "broken", my mobile is "broken"

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#163

Post by wheelinsupial »

bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

Reddit has a bunch of posts where people will document their path to become a developer. Rarely do I see them go directly to building something they want to build.

It’s mostly people taking online courses and building the projects in those courses. They’ll do a few different courses and build up maybe 10-15 smaller projects before tackling something they want to build.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#164

Post by tialaramex »

xmprt wrote: post #80
erwincoumans wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, learning is much easier if you have motivation. How do you motivate kids, if they rather play games rather than coding (and they even ignore in-game scripted coding such ad Minecraft or Roblox coding)?

Try a game like Factorio or Satisfactory. Even just Minecraft can be good enough to train their problem solving and critical thinking skills. They don't need to start with redstone to learn to code. They should play the game and naturally realize that redstone is a way to solve their problem (like making an automatic sliding 2x2 door) and then solve it. I feel like those skills will take you much further in life beca…

The trouble I had in Factorio is that it's deliberately not giving you very powerful tools in order to be a better game. The authors do not want you to skip their fun game by solving a tricky optimisation problem yourself instead.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#165

Post by galangalalgol »

Hermitian909 wrote: post #118
bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

I feel like I have a reasonably good track record of helping people get into tech (and was myself helped) and I'd note two things I've found very helpful: 1. It is very useful to let people know that the first ~500 hours of programming are the worst (not unusual for hard skills). I've seen now successful developers reduced to scream crying by the feelings lack of agency and overwhelming complexity during this period.…

Another way to handle 1.) is to let people modify the work of a master and build on their sholders to do fun stuff. I'd already "learned" a few languages (commodore basic, c, pre 98c++, and x86asm) well enough to do toy problems, but when my folks bought me quake I found it had a compiler and all the game logic in quakeC. I played the game a good bit but quickly it became about creating weird modifications, odd weapons shoggoths as pets etc. That exposed me to idiomatic code written by professionals, John Carmack presumably among them, while letting me skip everything between toy program or interrupt handler and using a game engine.

Code spells, a game on steam has some of that benefit, but nothing I jave seen since has been quite as accessible as quakeC

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#166

Post by mbrodersen »

I have had success teaching complete beginners how to code using the following approach:

1. Show them how to implement a super simple text adventure game in Basic using just print, input, if, and goto.

2. Ask them what cool things they want to add. Show them the minimum coding skills needed to accomplish it. Only adding new skills when the students wanted to add more advanced features to the game.

3. Repeat.

I was blown away by the joy and happiness the students were displaying. They were programming and creating a fun game in the first lecture. Most of them stayed behind afterwards to expand their game, play the games created by the other students, and helping each other make more complicated features. What a joy to see.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#167

Post by JoeAltmaier »

moonchrome wrote: post #134
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #77

My approach is to employ folks with enthusiasm. If they're teachable, they'll figure out whatever pile of tools they get thrown into on the first task. Then they'll have some skills and the next task will seem less daunting. Of course some mentoring is useful. But just the stuff that's pertinent to the task at hand; concrete help that gets them moving forward. Because, somebody is paying for results. And because prod…

Have you actually been through this before ? I ask because my experience wasn't the same so I'm interested in other perspectives. One experience that jumps to mind right away - a few years back I was in charge of mentoring a group of interns. The thinkering/enthusiastic guy was smart and reminded me of myself at that stage - but I was a terrible employee at that point and it took a lot of failing to get productive, a…

I've done this dozens of times. Somebody needs a break, and I have an opportunity. It's not a zero-sum game. That's the realization I made very early in my career.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#168

Post by JoeAltmaier »

skinkestek wrote: post #101
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems entirely created out of thin air.

I think that was neither nice nor fair from you. This is experience. If you had a cushy life, good for you. But don't tell others their experiences aren't real.

Ok, I'll bite. Citation? Any evidence of any kind to offer?

See, that post just read like negative chatter. "Folks are always doing wrong stuff." Meaningless to offer without anything concrete.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#169

Post by bdowling »

The problem started with using the word code as a verb. To code used to mean (1) translating a message into a coded form (e.g., cipher or Morse code), and (2) classifying something by attaching pre-defined codes to describe it (e.g., data entry). Programming a computer is not like either of those tasks, except to someone who doesn't understand programming.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#170

Post by tibbar »

It’s a little confusing and sad to me that people have to try to pressure themselves to go from zero to professional engineer in a short period of time. That sounds stressful and, frankly, almost impossible.

Like a lot of people here, I taught myself how to code as a child in a terribly inefficient manner. I spent probably around 100 hours making games on my TI-83 - you had write a formula to figure out how to color each pixel, it was awfully slow. I spent hundreds of hours on Microsoft InfoPath making toy apps with a little scripting. Everything was very difficult, but it was insanely fun. I’m a night owl but I would wake up at 4am to start coding stuff so no one could tell me to go outside. At some point I read an introductory text that showed how to do web things, and later I got a server, and made some real-time multiplayer games by the end of high school. I didn’t know about databases so I would serialize to and from a text file. I’ve never had that much fun for such a sustained period of time since then. I couldn’t replicate it, and with the distractions of modern tech I probably couldn’t even focus that much anymore.

I’m grateful that my childhood obsession turned out to be absurdly lucrative. Best wishes to everyone, young and old, diving in for the first time!

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