Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 211 posts

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#161

Post by notahacker »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #105
vntok wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia acts with impunity on Ukraine soil, however Ukraine is a state for all definitions of state I could find.

I don't really care one way or another, but the OP provided 2 stipulations for statehood: > If no one recognizes your claims, and then acts with impunity against you, you’re not a state. Ukraine only fits one.

I believe the point the OP was making is that Ukraine, like many other countries, exists because there are limits to the actions its larger, stronger neighbour is willing and able to take.

cf Western Sahara. The international community was not interested in preserving Western Sahara as a state, and so now its entire territory is governed by Morocco, save for some tent cities in a corner of desert the Polisario Front clings to mainly because it'd be bad PR for Morocco to wipe them out.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#162

Post by mkishi »

hammock wrote: post #149
eganist wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The image of the government official standing in the water "on what used to be dry land" is quite dramatic.[1] > Unfortunately that land is not underwater due to climate change-driven sea level rise, but due to soil erosion. They do mention this fact, however the focus of the article inexplicably remains on rising sea levels. > A factchecker might call that "missing context" (or worse). Summarizing is a thing journ…

Once again some context is missing. Of course coastal erosion is caused by wave action. However, the reason it is a problem is because of mangrove deforestation. Over half of the Pacific islands' mangroves have been rapidly destroyed by human development efforts just in the last 20 years. Mangroves are the natural, first and best line of defense against coastal erosion. They create soil. Without either mangroves or m…

How much mangrove deforestation happens in Tuvalu?

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#163

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

malermeister wrote: post #121
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really believe what you say, then find a way to short beachfront real estate and reinvest that humongous profit into fixing climate when shit hits the fan.

By the time shit hits the fan, it'll be too late. You can't "fix" the climate, you can only prevent it from getting to a state that needs fixing. (And we're failing at that)

Point is, the hand-wringing and the cries of "won't-somebody-do-something!!" are silly.

If you really believe what you say, then go and act. A time of great crisis is also a time of great opportunity.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#164

Post by JumpCrisscross »

prepend wrote: post #135
mlyle wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's 2.6 * 10^8 cubic meters of compacted dirt and rock needed to raise the island by 10m-- which is more than 1500 kg/cubic meter (1.5 tonnes/cubic meter). The largest bulk carriers manage about 400,000 DWT. So, about 1000 trips of the largest around... ignoring the logistical and ecological challenges of procuring that much material and using it to raise the island in a durable way.

That actually seems pretty achievable since there’s centuries of time needed to raise 10m (assuming we keep on without any controls). I hope the math for how much it costs isn’t so low as to be sad to fix this problem in the wrong way.

> seems pretty achievable

Why not give the cost of that operation to every Tuvaluan, along with a promise that they and their family can emigrate to a country of their choosing?

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#165

Post by kingcharles »

pkphilip wrote: post #23
rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

They can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.

The UN Law of the Sea does not allow this.. requires your territory to be naturally-formed: https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unc...

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#166

Post by malermeister »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #163
malermeister wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time shit hits the fan, it'll be too late. You can't "fix" the climate, you can only prevent it from getting to a state that needs fixing. (And we're failing at that)

Point is, the hand-wringing and the cries of "won't-somebody-do-something!!" are silly. If you really believe what you say, then go and act. A time of great crisis is also a time of great opportunity.

This is not a time for individuals to act. We need systemic change, not me recycling more or whatever.

People like you trying to push the responsibility on the individual is why humanity will go extinct.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#167

Post by bellyfullofbac »

beervirus wrote: post #34

Pure theater. > Kofe said he delivered the video address, scheduled to be aired at COP26 on Tuesday, in a place that used to be dry land, adding that Tuvalu was seeing a lot of coastal erosion. Coastal erosion, not climate change, not rising sea levels.

The world's burning and you're nitpicking about this...

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#168

Post by shagmin »

rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

I'm not really optimistic for Tuvalu, I'm guessing their culture may out last any legal standing. But I've learned in history the idea of the modern state with its political borders and such is kind of a novelty. For some people, it's just pointless lines drawn by Europeans from long ago (e.g. Pashtuns on the Afghan/Pakistan border) and others it's something like an inconvenience (e.g. rich people who live anywhere they want, corporations putting their profit far from their headquarters, etc.,) - wish stories like Tuvalu would further the discussion on the role of the nation-state in the modern world, because it looks like we're probably going to have a lot of refugee crises in the decades to come. In a way the world is getting smaller all the time and we even have more people going to space than ever, its own thing beyond geopolitical borders.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#169

Post by hanniabu »

mikojan wrote: post #134
hammock wrote: post #109

The image of the government official standing in the water "on what used to be dry land" is quite dramatic.[1] Unfortunately that land is not underwater due to climate change-driven sea level rise, but due to soil erosion. They do mention this fact, however the focus of the article inexplicably remains on rising sea levels. A factchecker might call that "missing context" (or worse). [1] https://www.reuters.com/resize…

What is the effect of rising sea levels on land masses afflicted by soil erosion in your mind?

His arm chair expertise didn't think that far

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#170

Post by Y_Y »

roywiggins wrote: post #159
Y_Y wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then let's make the old land the dike and build everything in the lagoon. Maybe we can mine the Pacific Trash Island for building material.

The density of the pacific garbage patch is not high, it's not an island so much as a denser soup of trash than other areas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

Well that's pessimistic! If there's any justice in the world then the rising sea levels will be compensated by an generous outpouring of plastics into the ocean and a corresponding increase in the density of the PTI.
Post reply on HN