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Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

reuters.com

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Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#151

Post by L3viathan »

deanCommie wrote: post #145
Svip wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta has had observer status at the UN since the early 1990s despite having no territory.[0] They issue their own passports and enters intro treaties like a regular state. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Ma...

So does the Red Cross and the International Olympic Committee [1]. And if you scroll up you see so do many "banks". UN Observer status is most often used to discuss the status of states like Palestines but it has less of an implication of being a sovereign "state" than people think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...

The order of Malta is on a different level though: It's a sovereign entity in international law[1], the IOC, banks, etc. aren't

The only somewhat comparable thing afaik is the Holy See, but that at least has sovereignty over some land (the vatican).

[1] although this status is sometimes questioned

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#152

Post by eganist »

hammock wrote: post #149
eganist wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The image of the government official standing in the water "on what used to be dry land" is quite dramatic.[1] > Unfortunately that land is not underwater due to climate change-driven sea level rise, but due to soil erosion. They do mention this fact, however the focus of the article inexplicably remains on rising sea levels. > A factchecker might call that "missing context" (or worse). Summarizing is a thing journ…

Once again some context is missing. Of course coastal erosion is caused by wave action. However, the reason it is a problem is because of mangrove deforestation. Over half of the Pacific islands' mangroves have been rapidly destroyed by human development efforts just in the last 20 years. Mangroves are the natural, first and best line of defense against coastal erosion. They create soil. Without either mangroves or m…

"Climate Change may wipe out large mangrove forests"

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912045029/climate-change-may-...

Even if logging is a concern, the mangroves wouldn't be as protective as you're implying.

Directly related reading:

"Mangroves in Tuvalu are threatened by various factors such as coastal erosion, pollution and on a long term basis the sea level rise due to global warming." (https://www.fao.org/forestry/9011-09d32b158b21752798b87b0378...)

Known at least as far back as 15 years ago: "Rising sea levels caused by global warming are posing a threat to mangroves and therefore communities in Pacific island nations, according to [the United Nations]" (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2006/jul/17/climatec...)

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#153

Post by hammock »

eganist wrote: post #152
hammock wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again some context is missing. Of course coastal erosion is caused by wave action. However, the reason it is a problem is because of mangrove deforestation. Over half of the Pacific islands' mangroves have been rapidly destroyed by human development efforts just in the last 20 years. Mangroves are the natural, first and best line of defense against coastal erosion. They create soil. Without either mangroves or m…

"Climate Change may wipe out large mangrove forests" https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912045029/climate-change-may-... Even if logging is a concern, the mangroves wouldn't be as protective as you're implying. Directly related reading: "Mangroves in Tuvalu are threatened by various factors such as coastal erosion, pollution and on a long term basis the sea level rise due to global warming." ( https://www.fao.org/forestr…

There is no question that mangroves can save shoreline, today.

The sea level rise in question is not enough to kill mangroves and won't be for some time. One source:

>The authors determined that accretion will not keep up beyond sea-level rise of 0.27 inches per year. Rutgers University climate data scientist Erica Ashe, one of the authors, says the current global rate is 0.134 inches

https://therevelator.org/mangroves-climate-change/

On an unrelated note, I am glad that you are doing some research and hopefully learning a bit along the way.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#154

Post by eganist »

hammock wrote: post #153
eganist wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Climate Change may wipe out large mangrove forests" https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912045029/climate-change-may-... Even if logging is a concern, the mangroves wouldn't be as protective as you're implying. Directly related reading: "Mangroves in Tuvalu are threatened by various factors such as coastal erosion, pollution and on a long term basis the sea level rise due to global warming." ( https://www.fao.org/forestr…

There is no question that mangroves can save shoreline, today. The sea level rise in question is not enough to kill mangroves and won't be for some time. One source: >The authors determined that accretion will not keep up beyond sea-level rise of 0.27 inches per year. Rutgers University climate data scientist Erica Ashe, one of the authors, says the current global rate is 0.134 inches https://therevelator.org/mangrov…

> There is no question that mangroves can save shoreline, today.

> The sea level rise in question is not enough to kill mangroves and won't be for some time. One source:

> > The authors determined that accretion will not keep up beyond sea-level rise of 0.27 inches per year. Rutgers University climate data scientist Erica Ashe, one of the authors, says the current global rate is 0.134 inches

> https://therevelator.org/mangroves-climate-change/

> On an unrelated note, I am glad that you are doing some research and hopefully learning a bit along the way.

Please reread your own sources. Your own source concludes in the paragraph following the one you cited that:

"Based on projected rates, mangrove trees could lose their race against rising water within the next 30 years."

See a few others which may be related:

http://www.tuvalu-overview.tv/pdf/mangrove_manual.pdf

https://wedocs.unep.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.11822/11812/...

Tldr: climate change begets soil erosion, which leads to loss of land mass... which disappears islands.

Let's stop disputing the obvious just to be a contrarian. Thanks, back to work for me. Wish you the best.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#155

Post by fy20 »

krallja wrote: post #148
ashtonkem wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. You also cannot defend a patch of ocean without some land, at least with current technology. War ships require quite a bit of time in dry dock for fueling, refit, and rearmament. And that's before we consider the subpar fighting capability that crews without shore leave would provide. No, they'd still need to buy or borrow…

How many war ships does Tuvalu own or operate?

One apparently, but it has no armaments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMTSS_Te_Mataili_II_(802)

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#156

Post by nybble41 »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #59
nharada wrote: post #12

So have we moved from "climate change isn't real" to "it's real but we aren't gonna do anything"? Nobody making long term plans is questioning the science of it, they're just trying to figure out how to be the last ones to starve.

Tuvalu has been relatively unique among small, poor nations in caring about climate change for a while

Which is ironic in some ways since even a complete end to climate change wouldn't make Tuvalu a reasonable place to try to live. Poor soil, no fresh ground water, minimal other resources, and even without sea levels rising the islands would still be sinking. Islands like this come and go (on geological time scales) independent of any human-induced climate change. When they're no longer viable the residents migrate somewhere else. I'm not trying to downplay the real disruption involved for the very small group that's made their home there for the past few centuries, but they're not victims of climate change to any meaningful degree; this is simply how life works for people who settle in places like Tuvalu.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#157

Post by Animats »

pkphilip wrote: post #23
rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

They can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.

Can't make your own island and create a sovereign nation under current international law. It's been tried.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#158

Post by twic »

pkphilip wrote: post #23
rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

They can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.

Tuvalu is at higher altitude than much of the Netherlands!

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#159

Post by roywiggins »

Y_Y wrote: post #106
roywiggins wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The land area of Fulafuti is 2.4 square kilometers, but the total area of the atoll is 275 square kilometers : it's a ring of islands surrounding a lagoon. The lagoon is 120 feet deep. The atoll is basically the tip-top of a vast underwater mountain that drops away precipitously: there's nothing to build a dike on . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funafuti https://tuvalu-data.sprep.org/system/files/Rapport_de_leve_C...

Then let's make the old land the dike and build everything in the lagoon. Maybe we can mine the Pacific Trash Island for building material.

The density of the pacific garbage patch is not high, it's not an island so much as a denser soup of trash than other areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

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