112 Gripes About the French • Hacker News Board

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#161

Post by bumby » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

mbfg wrote: post #147

hallway_monitor wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are liberal you believe conservatives are greedy, amoral and probably evil. If you are conservative you believe liberals are stupid and probably brainwashed. This is America.

You need to evaluate verifiable facts and come to conclusions. In discussion regarding two sides, A against B, you don't just say well each has it's good points, each has it's bad, we have to be fair and balanced. No, this is especially where newspapers have it wrong. You are fair and balanced when you appropriate praise and scorn to sides based on the externally verifiable facts, and the honestness of their actions.…

I don't think the point is advocating some sort of moral relativism but rather to steel-man both sides in good-faith rather than respond to some sort of caricature of each.

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#162

Post by viburnum » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #127

eplanit wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true. Europeans of that era did not bathe everyday. My stepfather escaped nazi Germany, and moved to the us in the 40s. He grudgingly adapted to daily bathing (my mother's insistence), but remarked how very American that is. He was very 20th century European, for sure.

(European here) my grandparents bathed I think once per week, we often joked about this in the family. My uncle who is a commercial construction inspector/engineer arranged for a full bathroom model a couple years before they died. When we went to sell the house he complained the bathroom was unused and looked the same as the day he signed off on it. Despite this, they never smelled bad to me, they certainly had a re…

Yes

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/hygiene...

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#163

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

QuesnayJr wrote: post #73

QuesnayJr wrote: post #6

I've never heard of this. I'm reading the original right now -- it's amazing.

This website has serious problems with its voting culture. The serial downvoters should be banned from the site, but they never will be, because dang doesn't see the problem. You can't take disagree, and you can't agree. Whatever, I'm out. Life's too short.

Can you not see that your down-voted comment contributes absolutely nothing? You haven't seen it before and you're reading it now... ok... so what? What can anyone do with that information? Why did you post it? What was the point?

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#164

Post by echelon » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

Jkol wrote: post #152

The opening paragraphs are lovely and absolutely not what I'd expected based on the name. This is the America we want to live in. "We insist upon the right to express our own opinions. But we also believe in the right of others to express their opinions. For the right to speak involves the duty to listen...We know that the truth can only be found through open and honest discussion, and that the common good is served…

We need to be reminded of this.

The left and right are so divided that they're intolerable of one another. Neither side believes the other is worth listening to.

It's a shame.

We're all animals traversing a complicated landscape. There's daily pain and suffering, and then we die. We should remind ourselves how similar everyone actually is, and that the diversity of our views are humanity living and breathing through our mortal, aging bodies.

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#165

Post by cycomanic » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

analognoise wrote: post #146

stkdump wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the republican party dismantling democracy right at this moment? Also, America is a friend of human rights mostly as lip service, see Hague Invasion Act. And the calling American corporate media independent is a stretch. If these are the most fundamental values to Americans, they do a poor job defending them.

We donate more to humanitarian causes than the next 10 countries combined. We openly admit we're not perfect and work to make things better. We do more good than anyone else - by a MASSIVE margin. We openly admit we've made mistakes. Where does this reflexive anti-American bullshit come from?

The what you call "reflexive anti-american bullshit" comes because of post like yours, which without evidence spout claims such as "we do more good than anyone else - by a assive margin".

The US (as in government) like all large powers are doing a lot of self interested power politics. They have overthrown many democratically elected governments and supported (and sometimes even put in place) some of the worst dictatorships in the world, because it was in their geopolitical interest. They invaded a sovereign country and presented lies to justify the invasion. They jave introduced a massive worldwide surveillance system, that is essentially spying on everyone. Have used that aperatus to spy on allies, and used it for to gain every economic advantage they could get.

Is pointing this out "anti-american bullshit". Has someone who did these things done more good than anyone else by a massive margin?

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#166

Post by scottLobster » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #47

baby wrote: post #10

This whole thing is amazing. It still reads really well today, like there's no tone of racism and nothing seems inappropriate (which is a hard thing to achieve with time). I wish we had such a book currently on how arabs and the muslim world are different, but not so different than us. > We didn't come to Europe to save the French, either in 1917 or in 1944. We didn't come to Europe to do anyone any favors. We came t…

Another thing that's been mostly sweeped under the rug wrt WW2 is that Russia both did the most damage to the German army and paid the highest price. America only started their offensive after Russia started winning and likely only wanted to deny them Europe. And the heavy casualties in the war likely caused Russia to fold on the cold war as well, there were just not enough able men after the war to create families w…

Marshall Georgy Zhukov: "Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war."

Stalin himself is also reported to have said the Soviets couldn't have won the war without American aid, among other Soviet leaders.

Worth nothing that Russia was the 2nd largest recipient of American lend-lease (after the British), which started well before the Normandy landings. Yes they were in the unenviable position of the being German bullet sponges, but they couldn't have even done that without American supplies. So it's arguable the US did save Europe from Germany: 100% indirectly at first and more directly later.

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#167

Post by danans » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #10

This whole thing is amazing. It still reads really well today, like there's no tone of racism and nothing seems inappropriate (which is a hard thing to achieve with time). I wish we had such a book currently on how arabs and the muslim world are different, but not so different than us. > We didn't come to Europe to save the French, either in 1917 or in 1944. We didn't come to Europe to do anyone any favors. We came t…

> It still reads really well today, like there's no tone of racism

Since both countries were at the time white majority and controlled, there wasn't any need to address race in any way. There was no "race" dimension. Therefore, I wouldn't take the lack of racism as a virtue, but just that it would be off-topic for the purpose of the book.

EDIT: Look through the book - every illustration of French, Germans, and Americans depicts white people. The book, as typical of the era, just doesn't address race. It only addresses culture.

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#168

Post by yardie » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #131

bumby wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we had such a book currently on how arabs and the muslim world are different I also wish we had such a book currently on how progressive and conservatives are different

I'll use myself as an example: - Voters should show proof of citizenship when voting. - The US needs to take a serious look at implementing Universal Basic Income, and not just because of the automation of jobs. - Abortion should be legal up to the earliest that a fetus has survived out of the womb, roughly 3 months. - We should celebrate diversity, and, we should be able to talk about what makes us different. Withou…

> - Voters should show proof of citizenship when voting.

You'll get no disagreement on this from any liberal. In fact the disagreement lies not in proving citizenship but in the methods to do so. If you have to show proof to register then why do you need to show proof to vote? In fact, if you have ID that proves you are a valid voter then registration shouldn't be necessary at all.

Republicans not only want you to show citizenship. They want you to show it 2, 3, 4 times in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of The Leopard“.

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#169

Post by heffer » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #10

This whole thing is amazing. It still reads really well today, like there's no tone of racism and nothing seems inappropriate (which is a hard thing to achieve with time). I wish we had such a book currently on how arabs and the muslim world are different, but not so different than us. > We didn't come to Europe to save the French, either in 1917 or in 1944. We didn't come to Europe to do anyone any favors. We came t…

> nothing seems inappropriate

  "The French can't drive a car. They can't keep it up. They ruin vehicles."

  The French, on the whole, certainly do not drive as well, keep a car up as well, or protect their vehicles as well as we do. Neither do women, compared to men.

  We have had more mechanical training, more technical experience. And at the present time we have incomparably better maintenance facilities.

Re: 112 Gripes About the French

#170

Post by Intermernet » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 3:32 PM UTC

analognoise wrote: post #146

stkdump wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the republican party dismantling democracy right at this moment? Also, America is a friend of human rights mostly as lip service, see Hague Invasion Act. And the calling American corporate media independent is a stretch. If these are the most fundamental values to Americans, they do a poor job defending them.

We donate more to humanitarian causes than the next 10 countries combined. We openly admit we're not perfect and work to make things better. We do more good than anyone else - by a MASSIVE margin. We openly admit we've made mistakes. Where does this reflexive anti-American bullshit come from?

You know how you just got all defensive and insulted about a generalization made about America? That's how the Chinese, Iranians, Russians, Iraqis etc. feel when you make generalizations about them.

The recent US leadership hasn't done a very good job of representing "American Values". You can expect anti-American sentiment from this.

It may not be justified when referring to individuals, but neither is the xenophobic response to any of the countries listed above.

Fight the governments, not the people.