It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#161

Post by rejectedandsad » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:26 AM UTC

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #159

rejectedandsad wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is irrelevant. The degree to which some people state the importance of this is extremely insulting to Asians like me that went to state schools that are not terribly selective.

I am an Asian who went to a state school and I don't think it's irrelevant. Regardless of Harvard's prestige giving a whole class of people lower "personal" ratings because of their race is racism, pure and simple. I even see startups like Canvas/Jumpstart [1] that explicitly allow recruiters to filter applicants by race. I don't know how this isn't illegal and I hope someone sues them. I took a look at your post his…

I work at Amazon, so being an elite is either years away or impossible on account of my IQ. It seems I’m stuck in the coach class...

My gpa was only acceptable at my state school too - never heard of anyone getting into a good grad school with a 3.9something in CS out of my institution.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#162

Post by krastanov » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:28 AM UTC

zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher steps of the economic ladder are overrepresented simply because having money implies better K12 education in the US, which makes it easier to get into these schools. (Some more elitist policies like legacy admissions are slowly getting removed and "donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever)

And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#163

Post by wkyle » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:28 AM UTC

neom wrote: post #52

Used to have this argument regularly with executives of startups I've worked for who had worked in more "traditional" industries. The number of times I've had to interject around "pedigree" being "useful" is.. sad. (Most)Everyone I've hired from Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc have been the worst performing, and the most far behind in relevant skills. RIT, Rutgers, etc, waaaay far ahead. It got to the point where I…

This is a common anecdotal example of Simpson's Paradox. Even if work performance is positively correlated with college ranking, a subset of selected grads can have a negative relationship with the same variables.

The mechanism is the selection criteria. Presumably, college ranking and demonstrated aptitude are both metrics used for hiring. Thus, if the variables are evaluated additively, and the examined firm occupies a single tier of the ranking+aptitude space, the hired employees will have a ranking/aptitude that falls along a negatively sloping line, similar to a budget constraint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#164

Post by rejectedandsad » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

torstenvl wrote: post #160

rejectedandsad wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree because you’re succeeding at the expense of the rest of us. Have you considered 99.5% of people will never step one foot on an elite school campus? I’m sick of society being catered to your whims while the rest of us are dismissed as stupid and innately less qualified. Objectively speaking, my life is absolutely terrible BECAUSE of elites like you hoarding opportunity and people like me getting nothing bec…

I'm sorry you feel that way. Before you make up your mind, I hope you consider that this is what I grew up in: https://imgur.com/Hw9zH9j I worked hard in high school to get a scholarship to a third-tier state school, where I worked hard to get good grades and improve my logical reasoning skills enough to do very well on the LSAT. Nothing about society was ever catered for me. I had to fight very, very hard. And yes,…

I see. My apologies, I should have specified “undergraduate” because that’s what makes the most difference in my particular field (not law). I have no idea what law progression is like after undergrad or what it takes to get into an elite law school that can offer upward mobility, but I do know it’s not uncommon to go to a top tier law school after a mediocre undergrad (Tim Kaine comes to mind off the top of my head) I personally know a handful of people from my undergrad at HLS (though they were full scholarship students who were overqualified to go to my undergrad and stayed away from the the simpletons like me).

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#165

Post by mc32 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

As others have said, there are many other good schools for everyone, even for the Ivy Leaguers. But with the Ivy League you get cachet and connections.

I don't begrudge them. They can have them. They will have them regardless as you said. Why want to be the thing you don't like anyway.

At least it's not as bad as having to have attended the Sciences Po, or have to have attended Eton/OxBridge and the like.

The bad part of the higher education system is the skyrocketing costs facilitated by loans secured by the gov where you cannot dispose the loan due to bankruptcy, as you can most others.

I don't think a 4-year undergrad tuition should be more than the median of a first year graduate's full-time earnings of the degree you're pursuing.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#166

Post by fallingknife » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

rejectedandsad wrote: post #149

torstenvl wrote: post #37

I strongly disagree. Having elite schools is far far better for upward mobility. Being a poor kid and going to Harvard is a far more effective ticket to the upper middle class than any alternative the author proposes. Sure, you could theoretically dilute academic signaling strength, by force, to the point of homeopathic levels - but who does that help? Whose life completely changes for the better by attending such an…

I disagree because you’re succeeding at the expense of the rest of us. Have you considered 99.5% of people will never step one foot on an elite school campus? I’m sick of society being catered to your whims while the rest of us are dismissed as stupid and innately less qualified. Objectively speaking, my life is absolutely terrible BECAUSE of elites like you hoarding opportunity and people like me getting nothing bec…

If you think your life is irretrievably broken because you don't get to be rich, your problem is not lack of money.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#167

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:33 AM UTC

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #152

fighterpilot wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't really care about what the applicant's race is. What they care about is how that person contributes to the metrics they're trying to maximize, or in the case of Asians, minimize. To them, a 1/4 Black person 3/4 Asian person, and a full Black person, are exactly the same thing, as long as they're both incrementing the same number in their diversity report.

Ah but they do. See this person that was Indian (but raised in Nigeria!) but pretended to be black to get into med school [1]. "I was always in a state of terror that I would be found out. During one interview at Case Western Reserve University, I was confronted by a black doctor and admissions committee member. He barraged me with questions about my family and personal background. I said that my family came from Nig…

I should have added the caveat that the person needs a sufficient proportion of actual ancestry so as to make it not an outright lie.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#168

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:33 AM UTC

retrac wrote: post #24

jedberg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the NYT: Working sons of working fathers are, on average, 2.7 times as likely as the rest of the population to have the same job but only two times as likely to have the same job as their working mothers, according to an analysis by The New York Times, one of the first to look at mothers and daughters in addition to fathers and sons. Daughters are 1.8 times as likely to have the same job as their mothers and 1.7…

I was just going to look for data on plumbers and carpenters. One common theme to all these jobs is that they tend to be quite stable, and require a life-long set of skills. My father did metalwork before moving to an office job in the civil service. He was the son of a die pressman. Who was the son of a blacksmith. Dad taught me how to weld and cut and so on before my teens. My intellectual interests went to math an…

Another big aspect to trades is there’s often a union bureaucracy or something similar to navigate. It helps to have someone to show you the ropes.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#169

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

kingsuper20 wrote: post #155

yaboy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you’ve never been pulled over by a cop for a DWB — Driving While Black.

Have you? How did it go down?

Nobody knows if a specific pullover is a DWB pullover (i.e. one motivated by racism, unconscious or conscious) or a legitimate outcome of a random draw. That kind of phenomenon can only be teased out with a lot of data.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#170

Post by krastanov » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #165

zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

As others have said, there are many other good schools for everyone, even for the Ivy Leaguers. But with the Ivy League you get cachet and connections. I don't begrudge them. They can have them. They will have them regardless as you said. Why want to be the thing you don't like anyway. At least it's not as bad as having to have attended the Sciences Po, or have to have attended Eton/OxBridge and the like. The bad par…

A curiosity for me is that the Ivies are among some of the few universities where you get need-blind admission and financial aid. I have many acquaintances that did not pay a penny in tuition. But that does not fix the larger issues with the system.