Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#161

Post by MauranKilom » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

pharmakom wrote: post #119

southerntofu wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why build more? There's plenty of abandoned/empty housing everywhere in big cities? Unfortunately i don't speak german so i can't give you stats about Berlin, but in Paris alone it's >200 000 empty housing units according to official statistics. Building more is definitely the wrong solution to housing. Just remove the capitalist vampire landlords making a profit on basic human needs, and let everybody enjoy free hou…

How is it that rents are so high and yet there are empty housing units? Don’t landlords want the money?

Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Saves you from having to deal with the tenants and saves you tons of worries/busywork like:

- How tedious will it be to find suitable tenants (do you want to go through 1000 emails)?

- Will they make a mess of the place?

- Will they call you at random times to complain about neighbors?

- Will you have to organize and deal with mechanics when e.g. the heating breaks?

And so on. If property prices go up x% per year, buying housing is a great investment even if you leave it empty. And yes, this is a serious problem in larger cities, where investors (domestic or even foreign) just buy up housing without any intention to let people live there, exacerbating the problem.

To be clear, I am just a tenant, but the above incentives for investors are straightforward to see.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#162

Post by adrianN » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #117

adrianN wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is EXACTLY what you get by building dense housing. You leave room for the important things that a city offers: services, events, jobs, greenery all in walkable or bikeable distance. Otoh sprawl development leads to dead neighborhoods, car dependence and long commutes. It also uses space that could be left to nature instead.

"Dense housing" is code for "chicken coops" with the only space people have for themselves being 40 m² for a family of four. Seriously, thanks but no thanks. There is a middle way between US-level sprawl and Japan-style chicken coops - and I definitely hope we don't go the Japan route.

No, "dense housing" is code for multistory buildings in a mixed-use neighborhood (like you already find in many parts of the city!). It doesn't matter very much whether those apartments are 30 or 200m^2, the density is several times better than in a neighborhood of single family homes as you find them just a few km outside of Berlin's city center.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#163

Post by EdwinLarkin » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #124

frereubu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely a rent cap is a clear sign that there is demand though?

A rent cap is a clear sign that the capitalist system is broken and we need a better system to match the housing needs and supply without feeding into heartless vampires who'd rather have empty apartments than rent them at a reasonable price.

Quite the opposite actually.Increase capitalism and reduce government control and you get more housing.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#164

Post by hannob » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

The interesting thing is how this will influence a referendum that wants to force expropriation of the largest housing companies ("Deutsche Wohnen und Co enteignen").

When the referendum idea first came up a common argument against it was "there are milder measures against high rents". Now that's what was tried and failed.

I'm almost certain the referendum will get approved. There will likely be legal actions against it as well, but expropriation in the public interest is part of the German constitution, so legally it seems on good grounds.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#165

Post by oytis » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #109

mschuster91 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please no suburban sprawl while Berlin still has such low density compared to other cities A city should be worth it to live in and provide enjoyment for the citizens, not be a glorified chicken coop for people.

That is EXACTLY what you get by building dense housing. You leave room for the important things that a city offers: services, events, jobs, greenery all in walkable or bikeable distance. Otoh sprawl development leads to dead neighborhoods, car dependence and long commutes. It also uses space that could be left to nature instead.

Have you been to Berlin? We have amazing public transportation network, I never had a car living here for 5 years already, and never felt I need one (at least not before the pandemic). And also coming from a country with dense housing (Russia), I really appreciate we are not sitting on each others heads here.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#166

Post by ketzu » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

est31 wrote: post #8

Full text of the court decision (German): https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheid... Shorter press release (German, too): https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Pressemit... It's a classical application of the "federal law breaks state law" rule, which I think exists in the united states as well.

Basically a note from the press release:

There are various categories where the states or federal have the power to enact laws. In this case, it is part of the competing law section: As long as the federal government has not provided a conclusive law on the topic, the states may make their own laws. For renting there is conclusive law, so states are not allowed to make new laws regarding the topic.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#167

Post by Tenoke » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

that_guy_iain wrote: post #93

unixhero wrote: post #43

Here goes nothing. Bye bye Berlin. This is going to be painful for many.

It shouldn't be overly painful. There were already laws in place restricting the price of rent. It's just a few months ago nearly everyone got a rent decrease. Mines was about 150 euros. With this decision it may be possible that the landlords ask for back rent that they didn't charge because of this law. And our rents go back to what they were. I considered my rent pretty cheap in the first place so I am not overly…

If you only got 150e then indeed your rent was pretty cheap (close to the cap). In my case, for example, the difference is 500e.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#168

Post by fy20 » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #78

This is a catastrophe and very disappointing. Here is a little personal anecdote: I used to live in the center of Berlin Mitte when I was a student, had rented a Penthouse apartment for 450 Euro/mo incl. additional costs (but without water, gas, electricity). It was affordable. Then a Bavarian multimillionaire bought the house from the original owners. I was already abroad most of the time, so I didn't experience the…

> Now I live in another country, ten years have passed, and the same happens in the city I live in.

The same is happening in my city (Baltics) too. We bought a new apartment 5 years ago in the city centre, at the time we paid €2250/m2 which was quite a lot. Now I'm seeing the standard price for new apartments being double that. The typical salary here is around €1000/mo[1], so these apartments are completely unaffordable to most people.

We were actually looking to upgrade (as we have a 1br apartment and now a kid), but we wouldn't be able to afford to buy a bigger apartment. Instead we bought land and are building a house on the outskirts of the city. We got lucky there too, as we completed the purchase right before COVID and apparently land prices have gone up a lot now.

You can still find barely affordable (usually older) apartments further out of the city, but if you want to live anywhere close to the centre you need to be earning a salary a good few multiples higher than the average.

[1] Thats for the country as a whole, but salaries vary a lot in different regions, so maybe for where I am it's higher.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#169

Post by bellyfullofbac » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

f6v wrote: post #126

Berlin is a weird place. If you're an art student working as a barista, I don't think you can expect to live in a hip neighbourhood. Certainly not 15 minutes away from Alexanderplatz(city centre). And you certainly can't expect that if the city is a self-proclaimed "startup capital", with thousands of tech workers who enjoy 80k+ salaries.

Good old gentrification... "Look at that hip area with the art students working as baristas, let's live there.".

A few years later, the neighborhood cafe is just full of tech workers coding the frontend framework for the next food delivery app and you wonder where the soul went.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#170

Post by jonathanstrange » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

dna_polymerase wrote: post #99

jonathanstrange wrote: post #78

This is a catastrophe and very disappointing. Here is a little personal anecdote: I used to live in the center of Berlin Mitte when I was a student, had rented a Penthouse apartment for 450 Euro/mo incl. additional costs (but without water, gas, electricity). It was affordable. Then a Bavarian multimillionaire bought the house from the original owners. I was already abroad most of the time, so I didn't experience the…

So, the bavarian investor who upgraded his property is the bad guy here? While you spend your time abroad, blocking an apartment in Berlin's city center? Sure, low rents from decades ago are nice, but there has to be an equilibrium. Houses depreciate and if the rent is too low there won't be any money left to pay for upkeep. Unless of course, the bavarian millionaire has to take a loss and pay for that out of his own…

I was not blocking the apartment but travelling back and forth while doing my PhD, during one year. I lived there, and when I was away someone else was taking care of it. The Bavarian investor was definitely the bad guy, he illegally cut telephone cables and threatened me with making my life a misery in a way that was directly against German rent law. I had to consult with the lawyer from the rent protection association (Mieterschutzbund) who told me it might be better to keep an agreement with him since they only pursue lawsuits in more drastic cases - unfortunately such harassing is normal, although in the end illegal.

The rent was not too low, it was perfectly okay for the previous owners and I can assure you they did not lose money. They made enough money to pay a company full-time to take care of the building and relations to the renters. They merely earned normal amounts instead of seeking a 1000% return on their investment like the guy from Bavaria. There are greedy and fair house owners, it's as simple as that.