Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#121

Post by southerntofu » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #62

adrianN wrote: post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. Even in Friedrichstraße, which is a hype neighborhood with great amount of activity, you have hundreds of square meters completely unused, with wild plants growing around and random waste accumulating. From what I understand it is very difficult to do something with that space, either because people refuse to sell or because of bureaucratic red tape.

> The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive.

What's wrong with that? Enjoy the little green space you have left while it lasts. Have a BBQ with friends over there, maybe? The gentrifiers/developers won't be so long to remove every last bit of green and freedom in your neighborhood, as they did everywhere else.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#122

Post by durnygbur » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

avh02 wrote: post #103

kuu wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing situation in Germany is so fucked Housing situation in London is so fucked Housing situation in Spain is so fucked Housing situation in Canada is so fucked .... I'm not an expert, but I see a pattern there...

I used to live in Dubai - i got there at almost peak rent/real estate... I look at rents now, and they're just under half what i was paying. Sometimes tides turn the other way too.

I would prefer location where my chance to find female mate is greater than 0, and where I will not be on the hook for saying, writing, or doing something trivial and then persecuted under pretext of consuming alcohol.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#123

Post by FlyingSnake » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #88

FlyingSnake wrote: post #16

Important to note here is that while the Mietendeckel (rent cap) has been overturned, the Mietpreisebremse (rental price control) is still active. This is a very interesting development though.

Correct. Unfortunately, the Mietpreisbremse is not as "automatic", because there is no fine tied to it. This means the landlord will not reduce your rent unless you do something about it. It also brings a lower reduction than the Mietendeckel. Unfortunately, many rent contracts had a "shadow rent" clause - a higher rent they'd have to pay retroactively if the Mietpreisbremse was repealed. A lot of people are about to…

Thanks for putting it nicely. This sums it really well.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#124

Post by southerntofu » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #60

oleganza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression of Berlin (living there for the last 2 years) is that there's plenty of space, plenty of new housing already built and plenty of new construction still going. SF, NY, Paris and London are way more crowded and under-housed in comparison. Shitty one-story supermarkets are really just a sign of abundance of space and not enough demand (yet). Among big European cities the rent seems low. You can buy an supe…

Surely a rent cap is a clear sign that there is demand though?

A rent cap is a clear sign that the capitalist system is broken and we need a better system to match the housing needs and supply without feeding into heartless vampires who'd rather have empty apartments than rent them at a reasonable price.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#125

Post by cbqfund » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #105

adrianN wrote: post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

> Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? That's exactly what they are doing at a few places in my city (also with a massive housing problem). We recently found a new apartment here, the process was as follows: (1) We found the apartment online. It was online for exactly 6 hours, listed by an estate agent. (2) Inside the listing…

And (2) means that privacy oriented persons no longer can get an apartment in Germany.

BTW, 10% of these data collecting advertisements on the real estate websites are from identity thieves.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#126

Post by f6v » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

Berlin is a weird place. If you're an art student working as a barista, I don't think you can expect to live in a hip neighbourhood. Certainly not 15 minutes away from Alexanderplatz(city centre). And you certainly can't expect that if the city is a self-proclaimed "startup capital", with thousands of tech workers who enjoy 80k+ salaries.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#127

Post by artwr » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #115

adrianN wrote: post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

Why build more? There's plenty of abandoned/empty housing everywhere in big cities? Unfortunately i don't speak german so i can't give you stats about Berlin, but in Paris alone it's >200 000 empty housing units according to official statistics. Building more is definitely the wrong solution to housing. Just remove the capitalist vampire landlords making a profit on basic human needs, and let everybody enjoy free hou…

Just curious, would you happen to have a reference for Paris handy?

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#128

Post by skohan » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

tonyjstark wrote: post #59

adrianN wrote: post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

Same here. The city itself should build as many cheap rental apartments as possible, also in more higher-priced areas to keep the pricing there in check. Building more housing is the only way out of this soaring pricing. EDIT: not only rental apartments of course but more housing in general. A second step would be, to make sure that rental housing is used for that instead of AirBNB or any other investment. It would a…

> A second step would be, to make sure that rental housing is used for that instead of AirBNB or any other investment.

This is already in place. Berlin is very strict about apartment usage. Once a unit is designated as a living space, it's very difficult to get a permit to use it as an AirB&B. Also if you own an apartment, it's illegal to leave it without a tenant for an extended period - I think 90 days is the maximum.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#129

Post by patrickk » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

kuu wrote: post #74

durnygbur wrote: post #17

Housing situation in Germany for anyone born after 1980 is so fucked.

Housing situation in Germany is so fucked Housing situation in London is so fucked Housing situation in Spain is so fucked Housing situation in Canada is so fucked .... I'm not an expert, but I see a pattern there...

The whole Anglosphere seems to have issues with housing, in addition to those places you mention. It seems to be a common cultural issue where people gamble on property like crazy. I'm from Ireland, and this is true there (in the desirable urban areas where semi-decent jobs exist), it's true in the UK[1], it's true in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

New Zealand banned foreigners from buying property[2].

Among Brits, there's a (small) trend of retirees going off and buying a French Chateau and doing it up, because the cost of doing so will be the same or cheaper than buying a very modest place in many urban areas in the UK. This is spurred on by a popular TV show[3]

I'm not sure what the answer is. More construction, rent controls and banning foreigners from owning property, none of it seems to really fix the problem. Construction is often too slow, rent controls can put in place conditions for landlords neglecting properties, and banning foreigners will bring other problems too.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/lvx0xg/pro...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/16/new-zealand-bans-most-foreig...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_to_the_Chateau

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#130

Post by Tenoke » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #106

tonyjstark wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. The city itself should build as many cheap rental apartments as possible, also in more higher-priced areas to keep the pricing there in check. Building more housing is the only way out of this soaring pricing. EDIT: not only rental apartments of course but more housing in general. A second step would be, to make sure that rental housing is used for that instead of AirBNB or any other investment. It would a…

So here in the UK, our councils used to build social housing. 300,000 per year. And then Thatcher made it illegal and said privately owned housing associations would fill the gap. In the 30 years since then, the most they've ever managed is 30,000. It's not in private landowner's interest to build cheap social housing. It reduces rents, it suppresses property values. So they don't get built. If they do build anything…

I'd take them building more expensive housing (as long as it's not used purely as an empty investment vehicle as in London) over barely building anything at all. I know people who would've paid a bit more for a nicer place but their options were too limited, so I'd expect some trickle-up/down effect at least.