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Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

businessinsider.in

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Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

STEM jobs generally pay more than non-STEM jobs, and I'd say graduate jobs range between $20-26/hr. If someone without a degree is making $20/hr and you're making barely more than that, why the hell did you waste 4 years to get a degree? I know someone who is in this exact situation. The economics don't make sense.

Because you want to do it. I'd honestly still be a programmer if the pay was poor. In fact, I do it for free quite a bit and I enjoy it more. People are motivated by more than mindless greed and universities shouldn't be transactional skills training camps. It should be about building an enlightened and educated society. College tuition in New Zealand are not structured like the United States. It's much more reasonab…

I know what university is like in New Zealand. I live here and went to university not long ago.

The fact that your debt is interest free is nice, but it's still debt.

Whether you would like to admit it or not, higher education is at least partially an economic decision.

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but during a crisis what's the alternative? The alternative now is to disconnect the systems from the possibility of contagion, but the nature of crisis is essentially an acknowledgment of a failure to achieve in those efforts. So what then, really?

The alturnative is letting things fail. It causes a lot of pain in the short term with people losing their jobs and general economic fallout. This causes a lot of suffering. But on the other hand, the rich will lose more, and during the rebuilding a different set of people will gain the upper hand and end up on top. It's hard to get the political will to actually allow what needs to happen to fix wealth inequality.

> But on the other hand, the rich will lose more

Will they, though?

Going by absolute value, perhaps, but that's nowhere near the whole story. Yes, if owners of a megacorp lose $100M, they've lost more than all their employees combined - but they still have a $1B between them in other assets, offshore bank accounts, whatnot, so they stay rich, while their employees suddenly find themselves in a life-threatening emergency.

I can't think of a single market crisis that kicked down the richest people to the level of the poor. Wars and revolutions, yes, but not a market crisis. The more money you have, the easier it is to protect it - and marginal value of money grows sublinearly, so losing even 50% of your wealth hurts less the bigger that amount is. On top of that, connections and networks don't go away in a crisis. Which brings me to:

> during the rebuilding a different set of people will gain the upper hand and end up on top

One way for a competing upstart to get ahead of the other upstarts would be... to hire some of the "old guard" in advisory roles. After all, the crisis doesn't suddenly invalidate the ex-top people's knowledge experience. On the contrary, not only they still have relevant experience that an upstart doesn't, they also have benefit of hindsight and connections. So while the names of the companies and their CEOs may change, I'm pretty sure many of the old players - ones that didn't choose to retire and enjoy their riches - will quickly find their way back into the game.

As for their employees, maybe they'll find their way back to their original positions too. Some day. After they dig themselves up of debt. That is, if the experience of having to give their kids heated ketchup packets for dinner didn't completely break them.

--

EDIT: To be clear: revolutions and wars aren't the answer either. A big enough wave of death and destruction will be enough to grind down the richest too, but that's only a way to re-roll the dice on who's the rich and who's the poor in the next round. And the poor, again, suffer disproportionately here.

For some reason this is seen as controversial these days, but I honestly believe that stability is something that works in favor the poor, not against them. It limits what they can do (the dreaded "status quo"), but it also puts a limit on losses. As long as the society is stable, we can try to make steady adjustments, even if it's a grind. If it starts to collapse, everyone enters survival mode, and everyone is much worse off. Even those who survive the chaos and chance their way into the top will have to live in the smoldering remains of their previous civilization, which is almost surely worse than what they had before.

(Worth remembering we all have more to lose now. 1000 years ago, life before and after war wasn't much different. 70 years ago, the difference was stark. Today, it would be greater still. All the quality of life we enjoy today is very far from "ground state" of humanity, very quick to undo, and very hard to restore.)

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#164

I don't think anyone will deny the presence of inequality, but cherry picking the highest possible number to compare against doesn't really help anything. Because the math is so easy, I calculated a couple other minimum wages (1985 vs 2020): - $21, if it kept up with software engineers. - $17.40 an hour, if it kept up with teachers. (Interestingly, only $16 if it kept up with superintendents). - Doctors are the real…

Actually, picking the highest possible number helps show the massive disparity. I’m curious as to why you say it doesn’t help anything, or why it’s cherry picking.

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you want to do it. I'd honestly still be a programmer if the pay was poor. In fact, I do it for free quite a bit and I enjoy it more. People are motivated by more than mindless greed and universities shouldn't be transactional skills training camps. It should be about building an enlightened and educated society. College tuition in New Zealand are not structured like the United States. It's much more reasonab…

I know what university is like in New Zealand. I live here and went to university not long ago. The fact that your debt is interest free is nice, but it's still debt. Whether you would like to admit it or not, higher education is at least partially an economic decision.

Sure. As it currently exists

But I refuse to be confined by the structures intentionally legislated by decades of Austrian economic policy to try to convince me that there is no alternative.

The debt could be erased, for example, if someone chooses a position of high societal ROI, such as say, an urban planner. Reward people if a need of society is satisfied.

Things can trivially be reshaped to encourage what we want instead of us always feeling pressured to do what we don't. Conforming our laws and incentives to a particular ideology wasn't necessary, it was a choice we can change.

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#166
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to make a profit when everyone is strapped for cash and you have an infinite supply

There's no such thing as infinite money. Cash just symbolizes value its not actually "value", and you can't make infinite value by just printing infinite cash.

I’m not the person you should be explaining that to

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#167
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of technology enabled wealth gap in feudal society? It seems it was more about religion being used to subdue people.

> What kind of technology enabled wealth gap in feudal society? It seems it was more about religion being used to subdue people. I'd argue the advent of centralized currencies did more harm than any and all standing armies combined. When you think about what a parasitical entity does in biology, you realize that simply killing a host is not evolutionary advantageous--their are 3 types of parasitism, not to be confuse…

What do you consider centralized currency? I mean, Rome had coin, I'm not sure about egypt and ancient sumeria, but I know they had gold and plenty of slaves.

People have been warring and exploiting others since civilization... I can't say 10k years back before the move towards grouping in clans and cities...

But technological currency also could "right the wrongs"...

Imagine if each person could only have 1 bank account on a blockchain, verified by identity which is somewhat centralized but governed by a DAO.

This bank account is auto-taxed (tx fees), it has a max limit, say 999 million. So essentially, there could not be billionaires. Sitting coin is taxed as well after awhile, and estate transfers would be limited say max 50 million can be transferred to posterity. The rest is paid out to all users as a dividend.

The bank account would also pay out UBI to people based on the size of their wallet and their utilization. The more purchases, the more utilization the more your payouts from UBI. A large portion would also go towards a central "trust" for crowdfunding of businesses, mutual aid for emergencies, and for healthcare.

The DAO would invest in worker/consumer owned grocery stores and try to peg the value of the dollar to prices by owning some of the pricing. Basically start w/ competing with Amazon on some consumer goods via the internet, and brick/mortar stores.

DAO would work w/ devs to develop an algorithm that ensures not too much deflation/inflation, max limits, good taxation, good ubi, good burning/minting via staking protocol, etc... all while being open and transparent.

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#168
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market signals can't go backwards in time so I feel like everyone replying is looking at this the wrong way. The learning here is that some fraction of new versions of this gentleman or lady xupybd will have a stronger market incentive to not go to the trouble and risk and just go for the guaranteed $20/hr making more competition for the $20 hr no education jobs. Maybe the higher IQ people will push average teenagers…

Exactly this. I was working low wage jobs 6 days a week. That made me realize I couldn't support a family living like that. I went and got an engineering degree. I'm not sure I would have done that now.

If the pay was the same, would you seriously rather work at McDonald’s than at an engineering job? That seems unimaginable to me.

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#169
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

billionaires are criminal by definition, and their existence proves the absence of a (econ 101 style) market in whatever industry they came from. we can only fix this problem through efficient regulation of monopolies.

So let's look at one random tech Billionaire: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Persson -creates a product using open, well known technology in highly competitive, easy to enter video game industry -people love the game -he becomes a billionaire Can you point out what kind of regulation could have stopped this criminal by definition from completing his evil plan?

Max wealth limit of 999 million, might do it.

Everything else is taxed at 100%.

Re: Min wage would be $44 / hour if it had grown at same rate as Wall Street bonuses

#170
post #51

Stories like this are clearly intended to support the politics behind raising the min wage...and Business Insider is a known propaganda machine for the left. What the story intentionally doesn't point out is that a hike in minimum wage wouldn't impact Wall Street bonuses whatsoever (or business exec salary/bonuses). The cost would be shifted to non-unionized middle class workers, such as software devs via wage stagna…

> corporate business newspaper is a mouthpiece for the "left"

you mean liberals, who are by no measure left: they simply want woke capitalism. leftists want to end capitalism.

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