Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin • Hacker News Board

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#161

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 12:59 PM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #136

tsimionescu wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling out the BTC network on its energetic inefficiency completely misses the point that the work put into the network is exactly the scarce digital asset, and hence the store of value. Why would that matter? The problem is the huge amount of greenhouse gases getting released because of this store of value. Whether it makes some economic sense or not is irrelevant to the discussion of whether it should be allowed…

The US just printed in one month the entire amount of dollars in existence prior to 2013. Should Bitcoin allow USD to continue? We will see.

That you don't care to understand how and why the global monetary system works is not an excuse to start believing in "digital gold". There are good reasons why bad ideas, such as limited supplies of currency, have been abandoned.

The huge problems of the monetary system lie more in the direction of Bitcoin (the unbridled speculation of Wall Street) than fractional reserve banking and fiat money.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#162

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

dave_sullivan wrote: post #141

tsimionescu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for those that do, a network capable of handling maybe a few million transactions per day while consuming more energy than many small countries is so obviously useless in that regard that it should be abandoned entirely.

I don't disagree with the weaknesses you point out, but I do think "abandon entirely" is an extreme stance. It's completely possible for bitcoin to lose while some other crypto (or basket of crypto coins) wins.

It's important to remember that Bitcoin (and other proof-of-work coins) have a very real and direct environmental cost. Given the state of global warming and how urgent it is to stop it, I believe that letting miners continue to waste energy is a much more extreme stance than stopping them today (with some kind of compensation program for their and others' investments in bitcoin, of course you can't just delete a trillion dollars worth of people's money in a minute).

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#163

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #159

tsimionescu wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof-of-stake is not an iteration on proof-of-work, it is a lateral idea. There is no reason why the first popular crypto-coin wouldn't have been proof-of-stake, except that it didn't occur to Satoshi (or it did and they didn't like it for other reasons).

Firstly that's not completely true: proof-of-stake doesn't solve the initial wealth distribution problem so often proof-of-work is still necessary in some capacity even in proof-of-stake coins. Furthermore it's possible that a purely proof-of-stake currency would have never gained the widespread trust that proof-of-work did at a time when cryptocurrencies were a new idea. Or maybe not... but people did have ideas abo…

Inventing the technology and getting it adopted are two different things.

For example, I happen to believe that decentralized coins are a horrible idea in and of themselves, even without proof-of-work also helping to increase global warming. So, from my point of view, any adoption of a crypto-currency is a net-negative, and I would be happy to know that the technology exists, but is staying abandoned as long as we have no use for it other than non-centralized money.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#164

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

effie wrote: post #150

isoprophlex wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not revolutionary. For almost every use case, blockchain solution are almost always inferior to the alternatives. As a payment system, it's sluggish, wasteful, and in 2021 STILL poorly adopted. I'm not arguing anything about the current system of doing financial transactions. But the environmental disaster that is BTC has to die. If there is truly a need for innovation in the digital currency space, it should be…

If BTC mining and related operations were halted right now as you wish, by what percentage would the CO2 production decrease? By 0.1%, inconsequential. We need to focus on decomissioning coal/gas power plants and combustion motors for transport. That will get us at least 60%.

> We need to focus on decomissioning coal/gas power plants and combustion motors for transport.

Bitcoin is actively working against that. By increasing the energy demand from the network, it makes it harder to simply stop producing energy. It doesn't matter if miners are directly buying only from renewable sources (as some claim), they are still likely out-bidding someone else, who then has to go to a fossil fuel plant for their electricity.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#165

Post by charcircuit » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

Yajirobe wrote: post #41

primitivesuave wrote: post #33

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

> change the way the world works Change how exactly? To me bitcoin seems like this: Expectation: the world ditches banks, dollars, euros, etc. People switch to bitcoin and everyone lives happily, paying for everyday stuff with bitcoin. Reality: people do not use bitcoin to buy groceries. In fact, people do not use bitcoin per se - people are only interested in buying and holding (speculating).

Bitcoin is not going to be able to scale to the world's population. A more accurate expectation at least for the US is that the financial system is rebuilt on web3. Every day people will be holding stable coins pegged to the USD in their bank accounts. The average Joe will not be able to tell the difference. He can still deposit dollars into his bank account and cash checks. He can still withdraw USD, or use a debit card / credit card to buy things.

We are still in the very early days of decentralized finance.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#166

Post by shawnz » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #163

shawnz wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly that's not completely true: proof-of-stake doesn't solve the initial wealth distribution problem so often proof-of-work is still necessary in some capacity even in proof-of-stake coins. Furthermore it's possible that a purely proof-of-stake currency would have never gained the widespread trust that proof-of-work did at a time when cryptocurrencies were a new idea. Or maybe not... but people did have ideas abo…

Inventing the technology and getting it adopted are two different things. For example, I happen to believe that decentralized coins are a horrible idea in and of themselves, even without proof-of-work also helping to increase global warming. So, from my point of view, any adoption of a crypto-currency is a net-negative, and I would be happy to know that the technology exists, but is staying abandoned as long as we ha…

> I happen to believe that decentralized coins are a horrible idea in and of themselves, even without proof-of-work

Sure, but that is a much different argument than proof-of-stake vs proof-of-work.

With the assumption that having a successful proof-of-stake cryptocurrency is a net good, then what I am saying is maybe our usages of proof-of-work up until the future widespread adoption of proof-of-stake actually will contribute more positively to that end than negatively.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#167

Post by inter_netuser » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #161

inter_netuser wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US just printed in one month the entire amount of dollars in existence prior to 2013. Should Bitcoin allow USD to continue? We will see.

That you don't care to understand how and why the global monetary system works is not an excuse to start believing in "digital gold". There are good reasons why bad ideas, such as limited supplies of currency, have been abandoned. The huge problems of the monetary system lie more in the direction of Bitcoin (the unbridled speculation of Wall Street) than fractional reserve banking and fiat money.

What are the most important properties/goals of Bitcoin, in your view? I am genuinely interested in your view.

The attitude on this forum towards Bitcoin literally boggles my mind, at most maybe 5% truly understand it.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#168

Post by fakedang » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

midjji wrote: post #86

ForHackernews wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work put into the network is exactly the scarce asset that is being invested in. No! No it isn't! Gah! I'm sorry but it is so frustrating to hear this nonsense repeated over and over. Bitcoin is not valuable just because you wasted shedloads of energy to make a bitcoin! It's valuable because somebody else will exchange something of value for it. It's incredibly maddening how so many crypto-libertarians suddenly…

The value lies not in the energy but in its utility to facilitate transfers without the expressed permission of some authority. The energy isnt wasted though, the safety of the trustless transaction is proportional to the expended energy. While not the source of value, it is a necessity, not a waste.

Some authority could just demand your bitcoin on some gimmicky pretext (USA) or draft laws largely stymying its use (China). Also I've yet to find a reason to transfer $30k in one go for any reason - I've yet to fall victim to some kidnapper or blackmailer who wants cash by the evening without raising any alarms on my part.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#169

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

jeofken wrote: post #72

ForHackernews wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to follow this analogy, what are the beneficial side effects from bitcoin? Better ASICs that do nothing but calculate sha256 hashes? Easier money-laundering? New venues for tax evasion? I guess censorship-resistant online value transfer is worth something, but I'm not sure it outweighs all the negatives.

Power over other people is intoxicating. It attracts those who value it over virtue, and the virtuous reject it. For their wicked thirst for power, some will do anything. In our age there is an unholy alliance between the worlds greatest power ever and its military industrial complex, where the incentives for government leaders is to wage war in strange faraway lands, and to bribe the population at home with dependen…

> This is all funded by printing money - inflating its supply.

> By creating Bitcoin, Satoshi took gold to the internet, and we can now trade in a currency which no one can inflate to fund wars, or to in essence steal productivity from every earner.

Utter bullshit. The power of the US government doesn't stem from its ability to print money. Rather, it's the other way around essentially: its ability to print money stems from its power. The US government controls the most successful economy and army in the world's history, by far.

If it had a reason to, the US government could, with resources it entirely owns, out-mine the entire bitcoin network and print its own bitcoin as well, in violation of the protocol. What's more, assuming it were done publicly and with a commitment to maintain it, people all over the world would use the newly printed US-bitcoin.

More realistically, it could easily lend bitcoin that don't exist yet and create a fractional-reserve system right on top of bitcoin.

The problems of today's economy stem much more from "free market" systems like the officially-sanctioned speculation happening every second on Wall Street. Workers are hurt much more by so-called "free trade" agreements that allow US companies to own other parts of the world and exploit those for cheap labor at the cost of both US workers and the foreign economy. And wars get started not because the US has money, but because the US doesn't allow enough democratic control of its workings.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#170

Post by ForHackernews » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

midjji wrote: post #86

ForHackernews wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work put into the network is exactly the scarce asset that is being invested in. No! No it isn't! Gah! I'm sorry but it is so frustrating to hear this nonsense repeated over and over. Bitcoin is not valuable just because you wasted shedloads of energy to make a bitcoin! It's valuable because somebody else will exchange something of value for it. It's incredibly maddening how so many crypto-libertarians suddenly…

The value lies not in the energy but in its utility to facilitate transfers without the expressed permission of some authority. The energy isnt wasted though, the safety of the trustless transaction is proportional to the expended energy. While not the source of value, it is a necessity, not a waste.

The energy is a pure waste. The "difficulty" of bitcoin blocks is continually increasing but the utility of being able to transact in bitcoin is not greater today than it was in 2015 (arguably less, since fewer merchants will sell goods in bitcoin)