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Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

franck-leroy.medium.com

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Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#41

Post by Yajirobe »

primitivesuave wrote: post #33

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

> change the way the world works

Change how exactly? To me bitcoin seems like this:

Expectation: the world ditches banks, dollars, euros, etc. People switch to bitcoin and everyone lives happily, paying for everyday stuff with bitcoin.

Reality: people do not use bitcoin to buy groceries. In fact, people do not use bitcoin per se - people are only interested in buying and holding (speculating).

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#42

Post by outloudvi »

heckerhut wrote: post #35

Idea: Change BTC protocol to include a new field in coinbase transactions documenting the CO2 emissions of each block. Introduce an uncle block reward like ETH. Miners agree to audits of their reports. Make block reward dependent on carbon emissions. Use rest for offset programs.

Bitcoin is not a protocol for honest people to reach spontaneous agreements. It uses algorithms to create consensuses, and audit might be powerless in this system.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#43

Post by cecja »

heckerhut wrote: post #37
ForHackernews wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work put into the network is exactly the scarce asset that is being invested in. No! No it isn't! Gah! I'm sorry but it is so frustrating to hear this nonsense repeated over and over. Bitcoin is not valuable just because you wasted shedloads of energy to make a bitcoin! It's valuable because somebody else will exchange something of value for it. It's incredibly maddening how so many crypto-libertarians suddenly…

Your reasoning is purely tautological and contains no actual explanation. Wondering why cannot see that yourself.

The funny thing with people like you is even if they are proven wrong they are still "believing".

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#46

Post by azernik »

comboy wrote: post #16
globular-toast wrote: post #10

I supported bitcoin when it first came out because I support the idea of decentralised, trustless money. Far too much money is redirected into the hands of financial workers who are not adding any value to the economy. Finance is good and necessary, but the way it currently works is not. But bitcoin simply does not work as money. There is really no doubt about this. Even the biggest proponents of bitcoin right now ca…

We do need digital gold to be able to have market of cryptocurrencies that are actually in use and not just being speculated on with fiat. Sidechains enable that. The whole waste argument is ridiculous on so many levels. I imagine these people shouting at people houses - turn off that AC! You are wasting energy for which you have paid! We could have made so many aluminum cans with that! And if you say that sure, let'…

Cutting down A/C usage is, in fact, an important climate change mitigation.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#47

Post by shawnz »

Yajirobe wrote: post #41
primitivesuave wrote: post #33

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

> change the way the world works Change how exactly? To me bitcoin seems like this: Expectation: the world ditches banks, dollars, euros, etc. People switch to bitcoin and everyone lives happily, paying for everyday stuff with bitcoin. Reality: people do not use bitcoin to buy groceries. In fact, people do not use bitcoin per se - people are only interested in buying and holding (speculating).

The idea that Bitcoin can only be useful if it completely replaces all existing financial instruments is a strawman

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#48

Post by dave_sullivan »

ForHackernews wrote: post #39
primitivesuave wrote: post #33

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

If we're going to follow this analogy, what are the beneficial side effects from bitcoin? Better ASICs that do nothing but calculate sha256 hashes? Easier money-laundering? New venues for tax evasion? I guess censorship-resistant online value transfer is worth something, but I'm not sure it outweighs all the negatives.

Some people think the internet should be beyond the control of a single government, and perhaps by extension so too should the financial system. There are a lot of caveats to this idea.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#49

Post by nx7487 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #39
primitivesuave wrote: post #33

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

If we're going to follow this analogy, what are the beneficial side effects from bitcoin? Better ASICs that do nothing but calculate sha256 hashes? Easier money-laundering? New venues for tax evasion? I guess censorship-resistant online value transfer is worth something, but I'm not sure it outweighs all the negatives.

Forcing budget reform because the government wouldn't be able to rely on printing money.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#50

Post by tsimionescu »

primitivesuave wrote: post #33

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

I think this is a very bad comparison, for several reasons.

1. With the Apollo missions, the money being put into the project was going into research and development, so there was at least some expectation of getting new science and technology out of it. With Bitcoin,nthe money put in is going into speculation or mining, which only fuels the network. There is no reason to expect new technologies to come out of this, and certainly not any new science.

2. The Apollo project was a big consumer of money, of which there exist plenty in the world and we can create more. Bitcoin is a huge consumer of electricity, the production of which is generally accelerating global warming, the single biggest threat to our survival as a civilized society that has ever existed in history.

We already know that Bitcoin itself is not even remotely close to being a solution to the problem you're thinking about (decentralized money), even IF I agreed that this is a real problem (I don't, I believe Bitcoin is going in the wrong direction compared to fiat money). You could make a decent argument for investing in developing scalable crypto coins, maybe Ethereum or maybe something else, but proof-of-work crypocoins and Bitcoin in particular are an obvious dead end, and can be decommissioned entirely without much loss (especially if the bitcoin holders were compensated somehow).

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