Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Toxic positivity does more harm than good

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 296 posts

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#161

Post by bitcharmer »

blackearl wrote: post #58
haunter wrote: post #11

Prime example is the current Cosmo row about putting obese models on cover ("This is healthy") while Covid is rampaging in the US and killing obese people https://www.rt.com/news/511466-cosmo-fat-healthy-covid-cover...

It's funny that people got so mad about that cover because the article within is about how to be positive when going to the gym and doing the exercise that you're able to do. Not going "well I'm so fat already, hope is lost" For all the fat hate, there are also the people who genuinely think that being obese is healthy. What better way to get through to those people than to trojan horse them with that controversial c…

I'm pretty tired of name calling like "fat hate". Obesity is a health risk; there's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#162

Post by ChuckMcM »

throw14082020 wrote: post #114
ChuckMcM wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of insight in the parent comment here. Most importantly this: "...there seems to be two camps of people: those who want constant positive reinforcement and those who it completely has the opposite effect ..." If you are leading and or managing a team, one of the most important things you need to know are how do people want their feedback. My experience is that it varies from person to person (I suspect that the…

> "this team is killing it" for ahead of plan Why do you think telling your team this is useful? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/about-fathers/201202...

I find it useful to acknowledge when the team is performing beyond expectations. That has been in response to early feedback I received in management roles from team members that when they were putting in extra effort they didn't feel it was "seen" and so it demotivated them to put in extra effort.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#163

Post by odiroot »

vbezhenar wrote: post #122
Bayart wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American in Europe : "Jesus, everyone here is so rude and cold." European in America : "Jesus, everyone here is so fake and annoying."

I thought that was about Russians, not Europeans in general. In Russia it's considered a mental illness to smile without a good reason.

I think you could apply the same in Poland. Maybe not "mental illness" but being a bit "off", maybe drunk or drugged. We also associate smiling too much with snake oil salespeople.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#164

Post by stjohnswarts »

shrimpx wrote: post #136
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #8

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

This may sound a bit cynical but it's honest: When everyone else is gratuitously praising engineering, it sort of creates an atmosphere that feels like engineering is being taken advantage of by these other people: managers, sales people, execs. It feels like these people think you're their cash cow, and also that they think you're kind of stupid, and gratuitous compliments are enough to keep the cash cow going. That…

That sounds like a personal issue though. I generally know if I'm doing a good job or being a load, and I don't look to external support or denial of that. I prefer regular work reviews but I don't need to hear it all the time. People are people and quite varied, some will think you're doing a great job and never say a thing, others prefer to be "positive" and lay it on a bit thick. When I want an honest evaluation I just ask to please point out both the good and bad from my manager/peer.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#165

Post by ChuckMcM »

tchalla wrote: post #110
ChuckMcM wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of insight in the parent comment here. Most importantly this: "...there seems to be two camps of people: those who want constant positive reinforcement and those who it completely has the opposite effect ..." If you are leading and or managing a team, one of the most important things you need to know are how do people want their feedback. My experience is that it varies from person to person (I suspect that the…

In the end, HOW you deliver feedback matters. Personally, I have three important characteristics for a feedback. Point 1 : "Be Specific". I can not stress this enough. Please point out specific observable behaviour. Point 2 : Frame feedback in terms of team/organisational goals. Every team has a purpose within the organisation. It's a team game and every team member should know the feedback in context of the team gam…

FWIW I strongly agree with this comment. I have painful experience from not doing each of these things at various times.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#166

Post by stjohnswarts »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #105
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #8

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

Same for me. I hate the celebratory management emails after crunch time. They feel insulting to me. I expect management to help during the project and not celebrating once everything is done. That while not having fixed obvious problems during the project. My partner is the other way. She loves and needs praise. The more the better. Another interesting thing was at the end of one of the last projects. There was a sur…

I want celebratory bonuses not "attaboy" emails for sure. I like to know on a regular basis what they think but don't ever take it too much to heart. Managers/CEOs are just people too. I think I know myself best, and try to be honest with myself.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#167

Post by _j6y1 »

tchalla wrote: post #110
ChuckMcM wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of insight in the parent comment here. Most importantly this: "...there seems to be two camps of people: those who want constant positive reinforcement and those who it completely has the opposite effect ..." If you are leading and or managing a team, one of the most important things you need to know are how do people want their feedback. My experience is that it varies from person to person (I suspect that the…

In the end, HOW you deliver feedback matters. Personally, I have three important characteristics for a feedback. Point 1 : "Be Specific". I can not stress this enough. Please point out specific observable behaviour. Point 2 : Frame feedback in terms of team/organisational goals. Every team has a purpose within the organisation. It's a team game and every team member should know the feedback in context of the team gam…

Completely agree that HOW matters so much!

To me and probably many others (albeit often subconsciously), point 3 comes across as blaming, overly-generalized, and lacking in personal (and group) accountability for your experiences.

What about something like,

"Hey John, the last time you did X, Y happened, which had Z consequences.

I felt { disappointed / let down / concerned / irritated / worried / angry / $whatever_emotions_came_up_for_YOU }.

Other team members reported feeling $emotions.

What was going on there for you?

How can I / we help you to avoid X in the future?

Do you have any ideas about what you could focus or work on in order for Y not to happen again?

Here are some specific requests I have for you in order to avoid this kind of thing in the future: $requests "

The edgy part about this for many people is taking ownership for their experience, we live in a society with a lot of deconditioning around this . Nobody else but you is responsible for how you feel. John didn't let you down, you had expectations about what he was going to do, and to your assessment, he didn't meet those expectations (that's also a reasonable thing to say, I think -- I would give more detail and context about specifically how those expectations weren't met). That you felt one way or another about this has nothing to do with John, and there's a lot of subtle and overt problems that can arise in a relationship when we attribute our experience to another person with our language.

I also mention that it sounds overly-generalized because saying "when you do X" has an implicit assumption that he will continue doing X in the future, and isn't really all that specific about why X has certain consequences - I think it's better to use specific situations in the past when X happened and to talk about what came up when that occurred. This is basically what I'm hearing you say in Point 2 :)

edit: fixed variables, wording

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#168

Post by stjohnswarts »

bitcharmer wrote: post #153
Bayart wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American in Europe : "Jesus, everyone here is so rude and cold." European in America : "Jesus, everyone here is so fake and annoying."

I couldn't agree more. I'm a slavic expat in UK. I recently raised an issue with how teachers at our kids' school are struggling with utilising technology in productive ways. I also offered taking a day off work to help them get better at things like google classroom and google docs. I was labelled rude solely by pointing out the deficiencies. It didn't really matter that I offered constructive way of resolving this.…

It's probably in the way you presented it. I'm sure there were positive things you could say about what they're doing. Then offer more help with topics you're an "expert" on without being patronizing. Nobody likes to be shit on. Start from neutral ground and call it improvements, not say "I don't like your shitty methods, here mine are better". No one will respond to that.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#169

Post by kayodelycaon »

NoSorryCannot wrote: post #123
kayodelycaon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is toxic positivity, but I don't think this article is talking about it. I'll give you an example. "Don't worry, it'll get better." People genuinely believe that and for many things, it's true. For someone with a chronic and severe mental illness with no known cure? We're sick of hearing it. There is no better for me. I'll never be completely free of suicidal thoughts or medication side-effects. I will neve…

Speaking as someone with mental health issues and as someone who has been the shoulder for others who are the same, no, saying it'll get better doesn't help because almost nothing that could be said will. But being lead in circles of doom talk and complaining by someone who is inconsolable naturally leads to vacuous sayings like it is what it is, it's not as bad as it seems, or count your blessings, only because I ha…

> only because I have to say something in reply despite not having any answers

I completely understand and my reply comes out of very hard experiences from decades of helping people.

Humans are emotional beings. We want to help. We hurt when we can’t. We feel guilty. The natural response is to say or do anything to make that guilt go away. This is a deep, hardwired response. It is a natural response and a good one. I consider this to be one of humanity’s best traits.

But it is not a good response in this situation. My goal is to help people. If I am to do that, nothing I say should said out of my own feelings of guilt or helplessness.

I’ve learned to embrace guilt and acknowledge it’s there but also tell it it is not helpful in that moment. I need to do what I know is right, not what I feel is right.

Hand and hand with this is letting go of the belief we have control. We can not save people who don’t want to be saved. There is only so much we can do. And we will fail. I’ve lost friends I’ve wished I could have saved but I know there were no words. Therefore, I have no responsibility for their actions.

As a very wise person once said,

It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#170

Post by stjohnswarts »

vbezhenar wrote: post #122
Bayart wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American in Europe : "Jesus, everyone here is so rude and cold." European in America : "Jesus, everyone here is so fake and annoying."

I thought that was about Russians, not Europeans in general. In Russia it's considered a mental illness to smile without a good reason.

Most Russians I've know on a one on one basis were pretty jovial and fun to hang out with. They did thing people were "fake" and "smiled too much" in America though. I told them the American take on reality was as legitimate as their more cynical attitude. It's all in learning about culture and why people are the way they are. Russians tended to be very straight forward and say what's on their mind, and Americans will hold it back. There are pluses for both positions.
Post reply on HN