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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#161

Post by kop316 »

sam0x17 wrote: post #130
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

The problem with this view, though, is imagine if you're in that situation, and you leave, only to be replaced with someone with more amoral views. It's the opposite of a solution imo.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law....this is exactly Rodolf Hoss' defense at the Nuremberg trails:

"Don’t you see, we SS men were not supposed to think about these things; ... somebody else would have done just as well if I hadn’t"

https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/c...

I would be extremely cauticous about using the argument of "well If I don't do it, someone else will".

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#162

Post by pydry »

metabagel wrote: post #106
w1ntermute wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

What’s the opposite of “participation culture”? Not participating? I feel like signing a letter of protest is doing something “real”. It’s communicating to leadership of the company that you have concerns about what has transpired. It’s not nothing.

Ayn Rand's following, probably.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#163

Post by telltruth »

telltruth wrote: post #103
miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

Initially I took Google's side given Gebru has history of bullying so aggressively and has no qualms to play race/gender cards at every opportunity she gets. But now that more details (including the paper in question) has been revealed, it's hard to stay on Google's side. It is clear that the peer review process that Jeff Dean had described has been optional for all intent and purpose. It says along similar lines tha…

Citation: https://old.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k77sxz/d_t...

Sample comment:

Another ex-colleague here. I was not going to participate in the discussions but your post made me realize objective truth should come out. I do believe she actually thinks she is making the world a better place but in reality any interaction with her has been incredibly stressful having to carefully weigh every move made in her presence. When this blows over her departure will be a net positive for the morale of the company.

To give a concrete example of what it is like to work with her I will describe something that has not come to light until now. When GPT-3 came out a discussion thread was started in the brain papers group. Timnit was one of the first to respond with some of her thoughts. Almost immediately a very high profile figure has also also responded with his thoughts. He is not Lecun or Dean but he is close. What followed for the rest of the thread was Timnit blasting privileged white men for ignoring the voice of a black woman. Nevermind that it was painfully clear they were writing their responses at the same time. Message after message she would blast both the high profile figure and anyone who so much as implied it could have been a misunderstanding. In the end everyone just bent over backwards apologizing to her and the thread was abandoned along with the whole brain papers group which was relatively active up to that point. She has effectively robbed thousands of colleagues of insights into their seniors thought process just because she didn't immediately get attention.

The thread is still up there so any googler can see it for themselves and verify I am telling the truth.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#164

Post by eat_veggies »

dx87 wrote: post #23
pmyteh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might get fired for... supporting your bosses' decision to fire someone?

More like, you support the decision, but your immediate boss doesn't, so they start looking for reasons to get rid of you that don't have any official connection to your stance. I remember a while back seeing leaked documents from Google where some managers shared an unofficial blacklist of employees to never promote and try to get rid of because of their political views.

Why are we conjuring hypothetical situations in which you are oppressed, instead of condemning the concrete case where Jeff Dean looked for flimsy reasons to get rid of Timnit Gebru?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#165

Post by [deleted] »

dmarchand90 wrote: post #18
miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

I think the subtle, yet important, difference is that she said she would quit by a certain date and they terminated her immediately. Given her role is likely just for PR it seems rather foolish not to at least give her two weeks notice or something.

[deleted]

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#166

Post by pen2l »

pydry wrote: post #79
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

If your job is an ethicist, your company hires you to demonstrate that they are ethical. If they truly aren't then you either have to sacrifice your integrity or kick up a fuss. Additionally once her integrity is lost she loses market value. Her market (whitewashing/signaling of ethical behavior of a large company) is an odd one but she behaved it the most rational manner given the circumstances. Moreover by kicking…

I agree with all of this, except you miss that she started playing those ultimatum games with her boss, this particular act, let’s be real, is something that gets you fired from most places. There would be a lot of merit to what you’re saying and a lot more sympathy for this woman if she hadn’t made these missteps.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#167

Post by yulaow »

romanoderoma wrote: post #117
yulaow wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her group email she also asked other employees to stop working in any other related project. I mean, I don't see how google could NOT terminate her after such an event. I am in a nation with extremly strong worker protection law but that action alone would be enough to fire you on the spot.

> with extremly strong worker protection law Serious question: what makes them strong if employers can't organize a simple strike?

You can organize a strike BUT this is absolutely not the way you do it.

You have to follow strict procedures, work with your union and go into one or more formal negotiating tables with all the representatives of all the interested parts before even thinking about giving an ultimatum like that. And for sure you cannot communicate in that way using directly your work email

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#168

Post by tertius »

_y5hn wrote: post #133
tertius wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets. What's the strongest argument against her "merely" doing this?

We haven't heard any arguments, only that management can do as they please when they don't like results of AI Ethics Research . We'll likely not get anything substantial, ever, either. As I've stated in other post, this is very, very troublesome for AI and Google. OTOH, Google has much emphasis on ethics in AI/ML otherwise. But the whole company, especially management, need to put actions in alignment with their word…

What is the strongest argument that you can come up with? Not that's been presented.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#169

Post by tertius »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #142
tertius wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets. What's the strongest argument against her "merely" doing this?

The strongest argument for Google is it not wanting people to know that there are risks, no? The strongest argument for her not doing it is keeping her job vs maintaining her professional responsibility as an ethicist, no?

That's not a strong argument. Can you come up with anything better?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#170

Post by romanoderoma »

rafiki6 wrote: post #153
krzyk wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, in countries with more worker protections it is not. (unless they pay you for that 2-week, month, 3-month period when you aren't working for them, but they can't remove you from worker list).

Yes this is correct. The primary difference in at will employment is that I also am not required to give my employer notice, whereas in the countries you mentioned I am.

That's not true.

You can as an employer walk away whenever you want, you just don't get the salary for the difference between the notice and when you left.

Example: if you have to give 30 days notice (very common in Italy) and leave on the spot, after your resignation have been accepted, you have to give the company the equivalent of 30 days of pay.

Which is exactly the money they should give you aniway if you stayed for the entire notice time.

But usually the employer and company find an agreement before coming to that.

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