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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

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Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#161

Post by cultus »

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

Absolutely agree with this. I started meditating a year ago and it has worked wonders for my generalized anxiety disorder. Definitely more than drugs or therapy alone. To me, it's conscious acceptance of the present moment, including emotions. That way, I can control my emotions to a surprising extent. It allows me to significantly improve my rationality and acceptance of uncertainty.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#162

Post by yters »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #153
User23 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. This is true for far Eastern styles of meditation, but it's not true for Christian meditation[1]. It aims to fill the mind rather than to empty it. In general Christian meditation is practiced more by the various Eastern Christian Churches, but there are Western traditions as well. I'm by no means an adept…

Isn't dying to self a central tenet of Christian teaching? " Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." John 12:24 "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. " Galat…

yes, traditionally there are two ways to approach God: cataphatic and apophatic

apophatic is more similar to negation of self

however, it is not the same

the idea is to remove accidental properties until one perceives the essence itself, like peeling an onion with a diamond in the middle

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#163

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe »

brainless wrote: post #160
submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

I find this subject very interesting. I'm an Indian with a typical understanding of the concept of meditation being about perspective, patience and such ideas. But I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to extract something out of it. As if trying to commercialize meditation. Peace with oneself, at one's current state is perhaps the only thing I relate with mindfulness. I have been in dep…

> I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to extract something out of it.

I wonder what you think about yoga in the West? I think it gets competitive.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#164

Post by lm28469 »

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death

For a lot of people it's simply a 15 min break in the day, between work, kids, netflix, games or whatever, we never just sit down, do nothing, relax and listen to our inner selves

I think that's why it became hype in the last few years, it's not so much that meditation will "heal your soul" or whatever pseudo science bs, it's more that it allows people to truly relax for a bit, unplug their brain of the incessant flow of information and distractions for a few minutes and reconnect with the baseline

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#165

Post by throwaway423123 »

kanyethegreat wrote: post #117
throwaway423122 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for saying this! There are hundreds of meditation types and techniques, with many different effects, just like there are treatments in medicine. Meditation is being sold as casual activity, one-size-fits-all, often by people who received only few years of training, if not months. Please look for credited teachers with decades-long monastic experience. Ask them difficult questions.

How do you find these people? What difficult questions are you asking in order to vet them?

If you are doing 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes sessions every day you don't need teacher. It’s a simple mental exercise. You may feel no effect on your mind to caffeine kick kind of effect.

But if you are doing more 30 minutes per day or specially more than one hour, you need some one guid you.

Best teachers are people spending more time in meditation than you are.

How to find these people are different from region to region.

I’m Theravada Buddhist and we have some monks living in jungles or border of jungles, they are full time meditators, wake up early -> meditation -> breakfast -> meditation -> lunch -> meditation(no dinner) -> sleep. we usually go to these monks for instructions when doing series meditation.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#166

Post by inv13 »

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

A well written short summary. +1 :)

I learned that trying to explain this topic to others is like forbidden fruit. Unless asked for. But I am going to write some anyways, because this why we are at this forum anyways.

There is no thing like ego, its not somebody. That's the problem itself. Its just your mind, which is forgotten that its just your tool given to you to put it to good use. And than there is something else behind it, that comes first. That perceives the output of the mind. Emotions, memories, all kinds of perceptions, everything.

After reading a lot of stuff, not particularly mindfulness but about anything, it really changed how i view the world. And i feel like it really comes down to the level of awareness you have about your inner working as a human.

One great example I experienced and got me speechless, more than once or twice: Little children, who barely able to talk, just about 3 or 4 years old, got a question about about who did something bad in the past? And they are going to say their name. And the "adults" in the room are going to laugh, because it sounds funny to them. But the child did not intended it to be a joke, that`s obvious. Its that they does not yet identified themselves with their memories. And the adults laughed because its so obvious for them to say: "I did it". But its really just a memory at that point.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#167

Post by gojomo »

That some people have negative reactions – including anxiety, hallucinations, & seizures – to intense meditation has long been recognized. Here's a story from 18 years ago in the SFWeekly:

"Bad Vibes- Warning: Meditating may be hazardous to your health" SFWeekly, 2002-08-28

https://web.archive.org/web/20091114023754/https://www.sfwee...

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#168

Post by mkolodny »

kumarvvr wrote: post #123
Pyramus wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have…

> there are many different types of meditations I am really curious about the origins of these "types". Who actually came up with these things? The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. However, now, it seems to have become a fad, with charlatans and marketers overwhelmingly using it to scam people. I see the same with the so called "yoga". But I have an open mind. There might be actual research…

Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism, is said to have practiced mindfulness meditation (vipassana) in the 5-4th century BCE. Though I haven't heard him referred to as the person who invented it.

There is lots of research on the meditation's effectiveness [0]. That research includes "47 trials in 3,515 participants suggests that mindfulness meditation programs show moderate evidence of improving anxiety and depression".

While I started meditating to reduce my anxiety (and it has), the goal of mindfulness meditation isn't reducing anxiety - it's awareness. Some people who start meditating, including myself, might start becoming more aware of their pre-existing anxiety. The good news is, once you become aware of the source of your anxiety, you can do something about it.

[0] https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#169

Post by muffinman26 »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #113
baron_harkonnen wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. A pretty common theme is that meditation should be practiced in close proximity to an accomplished master with their guidance. This is not dissimilar to the advice anyone who makes use of psychedelics will give. Of course people want quick and easy so "accomplished master" can easily be subbed out f…

> On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. I didn't know that. But I can see that being a "guru" or a "priest" is a profession, say like being a doctor is one. Now doctors are unlikely to say "go heal yourself". Rather they are likely to say "Come see me in 2 weeks and pay another $300 bucks". So I suspect if ancient texts say "Do not try…

Doctors want money, but that does't mean they're completely useless. I wouldn't want to perform surgery on myself.

I recently read "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, which covers the evolution of religion and various mystical traditions in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. It's a really interesting book and one of the points she brings up is that there are many historical examples of attempts at mystical experimentation that end in madness. The teacher is supposed to be a sort of life guard.

Ultimately, the book made me even more skeptical of religion and meditation than I already was. Spiritual/meditative introspection seems like a risky and dangerous process.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#170

Post by [deleted] »

devmunchies wrote: post #147
ericmcer wrote: post #142

Early in quarantine, I basically roasted my mental health with wellness practices. Strict diet, running, yoga, breathing exercises, strict sleep schedule, no alcohol, etc. etc. I felt great and in control for a few weeks and then slowly got more and more anxious, which is compounded by the helplessness of 'doing everything right' but not getting the desired result. Last night I played video games and ate ice cream wh…

A couple years ago I moved to the mountains with my family and cutback on mindless tech consumption (social media, Netflix) and started reading more books and working out (power rack in my garage). I feel my IQ has gone up a few points and I’m more in control over my behavior/emotions but my anxiety is worse. I’m plagued by my thoughts of the shortness of time and the temporary relationship I’ll have with my children…

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