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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#161

Post by M0T0K0 »

pastage wrote: post #125
M0T0K0 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. So many here have not had to deal with extensive emotional trauma brought upon manipulations, oversights, ignorance, inexperience, etc. of a parent who was totally a victim too, but THIS DOES NOT NEGATE HOW DANGEROUS they can be. My own mother whom was beaten and abused by an alcoholic grandmother will tragically never be capable of seeing her own faults due to the trauma that basically arrested her development…

Even if you do not want a relationship with someone, forgiveness is a way to feel better yourself. It's not about making some one else better, it's about your quality of life. After ten years I'm almost there, but it got better after my first step of deciding to forgive, still get panic attacks though.

I forgive myself for being naive and uninformed. Why would I need to forgive myself for someone else's actions and consequences? Fuck all of that.

I sleep more soundly with each day that I remind myself "This other person does not live in reality, move on". Long stopped having "panic attacks" 10 years ago. Coincidentally, right around the time I began to question the abuser's facade.

And you do want a relationship with these people. But ideally one that doesn't make you want to stab your eyes out constantly with ice picks because they keep digging up the past and weaponizing your own failures against you in everyday fucking conversation.

Peace be with whatever nonsense you're on about. Reason, rationality, empiricism is what brought clarity. Forgiveness is low hanging rotten fruit.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#162

Post by throwanem »

barrkel wrote: post #138
Osiris wrote: post #128

My therapist has recently recommend "The Grief Recovery Handbook"[1] to me to deal with a breech of trust in my life. I never thought of that as "grief" but as we went through it, it's really put a new perspective on things. The book also talks about the importance of forgiveness and explains it this way: "Since you cannot go back in time to change the past, forgiveness is about giving up the hope of a different or b…

I personally frame it as taking responsibility for your feelings - recognizing that you have in large measure conscious choice over the way you feel and can will it differently - and I think of it in opposition to what I perceive as a modern vogue for playing the victim, or worse, stacking up victimhood cards like they are spell multipliers and using them in a social competition to prove how much bigger of a victim y…

This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target, instead of letting it go. Not to say you shouldn't do what works for you, as long as you don't hurt anyone else in the doing of it - but to find it as you've put it here gives it the sense of general advice and recommendation, and in that sense it seems very much wanting.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#163

Post by nefasti »

ksdale wrote: post #108
voisin wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. I don’t think forgiveness is about pretending you are fine with something you are not fine with. It isn’t about covering something up or lying. It is about taking back control of your feelings about the situation so that you can move toward a place of healing. Most people have suffered some form of traum…

This is well said. I think some people view this as liberating themselves, and some people view this as letting the offender get away with it. For me personally, it feels oppressive to require anything from the person who wronged me. The fact that they wronged me indicates that perhaps they don't value my happiness as much as they should, and now my happiness is predicated on them acting the right way? This isn't to…

“ For me personally, it feels oppressive to require anything from the person who wronged me. The fact that they wronged me indicates that perhaps they don't value my happiness as much as they should, and now my happiness is predicated on them acting the right way?”

Thanks for that. That is a powerful thought and did help me right now.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#164

Post by nefasti »

Waterfall wrote: post #22
paulsutter wrote: post #7

In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate as each party uses a different definition) https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

I never knew the term before! Thank you. I've heard it applied to love, for women it often means it willingness of others to sacrifice for them, and for men it's dedication, at least in heterosexual relationships in the West. I've found these expectations truthful in my life. Had no idea it was a class of words.

Sorry to hijack your answer here. But you pointed me to the pmohackbook, I read it, and it is helping me a lot. Thanks so much. (Couldn’t reply to older thread)

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#165

Post by yarrel »

basch wrote: post #129
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

>a trite "I forgive you" A trite "I forgive you" isnt forgiveness. Forgiveness is a virtue, which means not everybody has it, or can do it. Forgiveness is not "forgiving" someone that didn't actually wrong you. Forgiveness is not pretending to let go but holding on. Forgiveness is not telling the other person they are forgiven, so the weight is off their shoulders. Forgiveness IS "dealing with the PTSD", letting go,…

So not only must we let those who wrong us off the hook and feel for them, if we can't it's because we aren't virtuous enough.

I'm perfectly comfortable ignoring that moral claim.

If people want to talk about letting go, talk about letting go. Talk of forgiveness is simply misleading.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#166

Post by yarrel »

basch wrote: post #134
sngz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that…

> Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.

If that person hears that they have been forgiven, how do you think that will guide their future actions?

There's a big gap in all the highly psychologized/desocialized talk of forgiveness in this discussion. That is one of its problems.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#167

Post by nitrogen »

throwanem wrote: post #162
barrkel wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally frame it as taking responsibility for your feelings - recognizing that you have in large measure conscious choice over the way you feel and can will it differently - and I think of it in opposition to what I perceive as a modern vogue for playing the victim, or worse, stacking up victimhood cards like they are spell multipliers and using them in a social competition to prove how much bigger of a victim y…

This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target, instead of letting it go. Not to say you shouldn't do what works for you, as long as you don't hurt anyone else in the doing of it - but to find it as you've put it here gives it the sense of general advice and recommendation, and in that sense it seems very much wanting.

This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target

I think that's antithetical to the term forgiveness, so I suspect that's not intended by the parent comment(s). In fact, the exact opposite is how I read their comment, that is that you take your grudges toward external targets and let them go.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#168

Post by yarrel »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #142

"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to acco…

"Forgiving someone who hasn't changed is like encouraging a poisoner."

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#169

Post by 08-15 »

scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

> What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades?

It's all a matter of perspective. You see, one day, your parents will show up at your doorstep and expect you do the mature thing and take care of them in their old age. You could then go off on a long rant, wash all the dirty laundry, and finally slam the door in their face. Or you tell them "I forgive you" and close the door in their face.

That's the power of forgiveness.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#170

Post by waterhouse »

coldtea wrote: post #19
paulsutter wrote: post #7

In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate as each party uses a different definition) https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

Aren't those the only words that matter? Anything else, that everybody is clear and agrees on, might as well not be discussed at all...

If definitions are clear and everyone agrees on them, then discussion can be about whether those definitions apply. Discussion is then about the real world. The definition of murder is pretty clear and widely agreed on; there is plenty of room for discussion about whether it was Smith or Jones who committed it.

If definitions are unclear or people disagree on them, then discussion may either be about the definitions and not about the real world, or be incoherent.

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