Why forgiving someone else is about you • Hacker News Board

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#81

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't.

Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful.

Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matter as long as it's clearly being helpful.

But cliches about forgiveness are utterly unhelpful to most people who were exposed to real emotional and psychological harm - whether it was a random drive-by crime, a work situation, a toxic relationship, or dysfunctional family dynamics.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#82

Post by wenc » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 1:39 PM UTC

Forgiveness is a tough topic for many who have been hurt, so I expect we'll see many comments along the lines of "what about this?" or "this is unrealistic/too simplistic".

I hope we can be compassionate toward the skeptics in our replies.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#83

Post by voisin » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 1:42 PM UTC

scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

Reframing the situation from “this happened to me” to “this happened for me” has been the healthiest advice I’ve received for dealing with childhood trauma. It changes the perspective from being a victim to being someone who conquered adversity and used it to (a) not repeat the cycle of abuse, (b) learn about other people and how they can act, and possibly (c) how to be a better person than you otherwise might have been had life been easier.

Depending on your personality the following recommendation may be a huge turnoff, but Tony Robbin’s Netflix documentary “I am Not Your Guru” has a number of examples of reframing situations in this manner.

Good luck and I wish you peace and wellness!

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#84

Post by voisin » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

> Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't.

I don’t think forgiveness is about pretending you are fine with something you are not fine with. It isn’t about covering something up or lying. It is about taking back control of your feelings about the situation so that you can move toward a place of healing. Most people have suffered some form of trauma in their lives, and some choose to dwell on it while looking for the person or situation that brought that trauma to apologize or try to make the situation right. This is giving control of your feelings over to some third party. Forgiveness is saying “I am releasing my own need for you to be part of my healing journey.”

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#85

Post by OneGuy123 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:00 PM UTC

scottious wrote: post #66

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it takes. Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago. Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant pers…

Get yourself a restraining order.

And no, this is not an exageration.

Threaten her that she will never she her grandchildren again.

It's not your responsibility to try and help your mother.

The need/willingness for change has to come from her. If she won't even consider that it might be her fault and not yours she is a loss cause.

Until she realize this she is a lost cause and you are doing yourself a disfavor by guilt-tripping over her letting her upset your life.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#86

Post by OneGuy123 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:06 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

This is true. No one was ever helper just because society said to him "do it".

Which is why it must proceed through "understanding": you must clearly see the sitation for what it is, from both perspectives: yours and theirs.

The ego can get locked in a victim mentality and this will blind you from being able to see the truth about the situation.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#87

Post by sumtechguy » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #77

sumtechguy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live with someone who does not 'forget' and accumulates. It eats at them every day. They get wildly angry at total strangers now for slight transgressions. I regularly have to walk them through how most of what happens is not aimed at them. People are just kinda of selfish or literally did not see you. It eats at them all the time. I find them sitting in a room. "what are you thinking" they will bring up something…

Getting angry for nothing is completely another topic. There is nothing to forgive then. Not forgiving does not mean you always think and remeber of. This yet another issue. Not forgiving means just that. If anybody asks you if you forgave you answer no. Not that you despair every moment thinking about who wronged you when.

The forgiveness is not always for them. It is sometimes for you. That was their point. Forgiveness is a part of a process to 'let go'. Not doing it ever can create distrust issues with total strangers. I have seen it a few times with my own eyes. I am a large believer in 'little things make big things'. Lots of little bad things can accumulate into one large bad thing. The opposite is also true. You can chose to have non-forgiveness in your life. That is your choice. I always ask myself do I want to be the happy dude at the retirement home talking about my good friends or the bitter cynical guy who holds a grudge. One dude I know still holds grudges from the mid 80s. He lives them over and over. Because he can not let go. It has harmed him in every aspect of his life.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#88

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #76

GavinMcG wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to make yourself responsible for your emotional reality, because you're the only one who can consistently influence it. Or at least, it's up to you whether you allow others to influence it. No one denies that people really are victimized. But whether they let that victim vs. perpetrator mindset play out in their other relationships and lived experiences is (with time and practice) up to them.

I do not know what "victim mindset" is supposed to be. Victim is descriptor - something negative was done to you. You don't become victim by looking at things certain way. Nor you do stop being one. If you was robbed, you are robbery victim regardless of what your mindset is. Most of this is about denying that you might be victim of something either to yourself or to others. Plus, people actually really do deny that.…

In many scenarios you do become a victim by looking at things a certain way. Suppose I get in a nasty fight with a close friend, where she yells at me and calls me all sorts of nasty names and shoves me a bit before running away. There are two different ways I could process that:

* That conversation really spiraled out of control. We should get together, understand what went wrong, and make up.

* I'm an abuse victim! She emotionally abused me and then lightly physically abused me. She'd better apologize for the trauma she put me through.

The first attitude is especially important when I might be misremembering how things went or forgetting about what I was yelling back. But even if I'm 100% confident that my summary is fair and accurate, I don't think the second strategy is healthy, and I'd call the idea that I should embrace it "victim mindset".

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#89

Post by jhardy54 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

scottious wrote: post #66

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it takes. Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago. Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant pers…

> When do I just call it quits?

If your partner's mom was treating them this way, or if your son was being treated this way, when would you want them to call it quits?

I know you well enough to feel good about making a suggestion, but I can share my data point: I called it quits with one of my parents after putting up some boundaries (~"I love you but it doesn't feel good when you call and text me every few hours or unexpected show up at my work") and they responded very negatively.

My metric: if anyone (from a total stranger to a romantic partner) ever talked to me that way, I'd cut contact immediately. We have no obligation to be outlets for abusive behavior. I'm probably going to talk to a therapist about it because I want to make sure I'm covering all my bases, but most of the time it feels like a net positive to have called it quits.

I hope you can find some peace and balance, with or without the relationship with your mom. I'll be thinking of you, and I'm happy to chat if you're ever looking for perspective from the other side of the fence.

Also: https://old.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#90

Post by mucholove » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

OneGuy123 wrote: post #85

scottious wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it takes. Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago. Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant pers…

Get yourself a restraining order. And no, this is not an exageration. Threaten her that she will never she her grandchildren again. It's not your responsibility to try and help your mother. The need/willingness for change has to come from her. If she won't even consider that it might be her fault and not yours she is a loss cause. Until she realize this she is a lost cause and you are doing yourself a disfavor by gui…

Don’t threaten them if you don’t mean do it.

Really. A baseless threat will put your mother in the role of the victim—and the power of the victim role will let her throw more abuse on you. She will feel entitled to say nasty things.

Getting the restraining order or some similar action that cuts her off is what will free you from the role of the victim. From this place you can take pity on her. You have taken action to eliminate the oppressor. Maybe more will be needed. If you are ever so frustrated as to feel helpless about doing that “more which might be needed” then you are back at victim.

Good luck!

PPS — look up the drama triangle and the corresponding empowerment triangle. Might be useful ;)