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Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

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Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#161

Post by gridlockd »

thomaskcr wrote: post #79

Not only that, they went after the short sellers who were writing about it publicly. > Germany's pursuit of short sellers began when Perring’s previously little-known outfit, called Zatarra Research, published its report about Wirecard. > In March, just three months before Wirecard’s collapse, prosecutors dropped their case against Perring after he agreed to make a donation of an undisclosed sum to a charitable organ…

They didn't prosecute "short selling", they prosecuted market manipulation:

1. Get a large short position

2. Publish damaging information

3. Profit

It doesn't even matter if the information is true. If it is true, it is insider trading. If it isn't true, it is libel. Either warrants prosecution.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#162

Post by jen20 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #82
squiggleblaz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because network effects aren't the same as corruption. Although it is certainly unpleasant to consider that government officials might be making decisions more favorable to one company than another in the hope or expectation that that they will get a board seat five years hence, it is worth noting that if they upset one company now, they may get the board seat on the other company. And since an…

You might have a point if one of the reliable features of privatisations in the UK over the last few decades hadn't been a steady stream of ministers pushing through privatisation - often at significant public cost - and then parachuting straight into the board of the privatised company. This is a bazillion times worse than cash in an envelope, because it's straightforward larceny of public resources, papered over wi…

> This current government isn't even pretending to do anything else.

The current government in the UK is uniquely poor compared to every UK government that has come before it. The situation there does not extend to "western nations" in general - just those run by incompetent/malignant (take your pick) populists.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#163

Post by marta_morena_25 »

gridlockd wrote: post #161
thomaskcr wrote: post #79

Not only that, they went after the short sellers who were writing about it publicly. > Germany's pursuit of short sellers began when Perring’s previously little-known outfit, called Zatarra Research, published its report about Wirecard. > In March, just three months before Wirecard’s collapse, prosecutors dropped their case against Perring after he agreed to make a donation of an undisclosed sum to a charitable organ…

They didn't prosecute "short selling", they prosecuted market manipulation: 1. Get a large short position 2. Publish damaging information 3. Profit It doesn't even matter if the information is true. If it is true, it is insider trading. If it isn't true, it is libel. Either warrants prosecution.

Exactly, short-selling and writing a damaging article is kinda similar to Casino Royale... Just well, you don't try to explode a new airplane prototype while fighting off James Bond, you just write a damaging blogpost. The concept is the same though.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#164

Post by riffraff »

levosmetalo wrote: post #67
chki wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're on the DAX or a politician, you're untouchable in Germany and lots of people inside and outside of Germany have no idea of how insanely corrupt the German government and their corporate buddies are. This is obviously not true. There have been numerous uncovered political scandals in Germany that have led to politicians and managers loosing their job. Christian Wulff (Former German President), Guttenberg (f…

Even though losing the job is not a punishment, not everyone even lost his job. Andreas Sheuer is still in charge of transport as a federal Minister, despite the 500,000,000 € heavy corruption scandal. Von der Leyen got even "promoted" to EU-lead position after heavy corruption scandal last year when she was a Defense Minister of Germany. Not only Germany, but in the whole EU commission leadership it would be hard to…

> but in the whole EU commission leadership it would be hard to find someone without corruption scandal, accusation or conviction.

that seems an exaggeration, off the top of my head Gentiloni[0] (economics) has not been involved in any corruption scandal or accusation that I know of, nor was Timmermans[1] (VP).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Gentiloni [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_Timmermans

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#165

Post by formerly_proven »

Mirioron wrote: post #84
lima wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The affair you're talking about happened more than a decade ago, it was a major and pretty unique scandal in Germany, and the "expert" has been convicted not only to pay damages, but was also found to be guilty of malpractice. The state eventually offered the investigators to be re-hired. There were no consequences for the "instigators" because, to my understanding, it couldn't be proven that there was criminal inten…

Is it unique? Didn't Gustl Mollath [0] also end up in a psychiatric facility and it started with him claiming that a bank was evading taxes? He was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility. After years in there it turned out that his claim about the tax evasion was reasonable. From what I can tell, he spent ~6 years locked up in a psychiatric facility and got €600,000 in damages. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org…

4x 200k and 600k EUR are among the highest damages for pain and suffering ever awarded by a German court, so as far as legally resolved processes go these are very unusual.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#166

Post by perlgeek »

chii wrote: post #24
solstice wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state government of lower Saxony (the state where VW is based) owns 25% of VW. I don't think that's a coincidence. Edit: looks like it's 20%

how can a company be both owned by, but also regulated by "the same" entity? that is a conflict of interest aint it?

So, we should forbid all politicians to own stock.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#167

Post by jacquesm »

k__ wrote: post #45
calpaterson wrote: post #22

Sadly can't read the article as I don't have a subscription but have followed this in the FT. Germany has an ultra-protectionist political culture for pet German companies. Wirecard was one such pet company but there are many others who have benefited from implicit state support in the form of lowered standards and private favouritism: Deutsche, VW, Siemens, etc. Wirecard even holds a banking license so should be sub…

My theory is, that the German state sees the companies as work creation schemes. Some of the smartest people work at big corps, but most people there are just running around burning money, but at least these people don't count as "unemployed".

Companies are work creation schemes. Some government even set up investment vehicles for the sole purpose of creating jobs because that's cheaper than using the same money to support people directly. It doesn't always work out but there are examples of this succeeding beyond anybody's wildest expectation.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#168

Post by jacquesm »

aaisola wrote: post #107

There is also an element of hubris where Germany and the EU so badly wanted to have a tech champion emerge that was competitive on a global level, where they looked the other way anytime someone raised concerns. The FT has been criticizing Wirecard for yrs..

The EU has plenty of tech companies competing on a global level. They're not the ones that you may think of but they're there regardless.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#169

Post by formerly_proven »

gumby wrote: post #105
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #4

Also, under Helmut Kohl, despite advice from experts to use fiber, the German government wired the whole country with copper instead because the ministry of infrastructure at the time had stocks in the copper business leaving the country's internet behind Ukraine or Belarus.[1] If you're on the DAX or a politician, you're untouchable in Germany and lots of people inside and outside of Germany have no idea of how insa…

Germany is notable for its lack of “retail” or low level corruption (cops don’t take bribes, you can get a building permit by following the rules, etc). One of the best in the world. But at the highest levels the opposite prevails, up there with France or even the US. Not Kleptocracy by any means, but bad by OECD standards. Because it’s so institutionalized it doesn’t really appear in those “corruption index” reports…

I agree, it's quite weird. Low level corruption exists but I'd say 99 % of the time it isn't and can't be bought but is awarded through social connections instead.

Re: Germany’s top financial supervisor dismissed a decade of warnings about Wirecard

#170

Post by lima »

marcinzm wrote: post #91
lima wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The affair you're talking about happened more than a decade ago, it was a major and pretty unique scandal in Germany, and the "expert" has been convicted not only to pay damages, but was also found to be guilty of malpractice. The state eventually offered the investigators to be re-hired. There were no consequences for the "instigators" because, to my understanding, it couldn't be proven that there was criminal inten…

I mean, in Wirecard prosecutors literally went after short sellers with criminals charges. For years. They only dropped charges a few months ago after a donation was made to a charitable organization. Seems pretty similar and pretty corrupt to me. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wirecard-accounts-germany... edit: I guess "we'll ruin you and throw you in jail" is better than "we'll throw you out a window" but it's…

> I mean, in Wirecard prosecutors literally went after short sellers with criminals charges. For years. They only dropped charges a few months ago after a donation was made to a charitable organization. Seems pretty similar and pretty corrupt to me.

Corruption, or (gross) incompetence? Don't attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by stupidity.

Misplaced trust, broken culture, political pressure, or even actual corruption - we simply don't know what happened.

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