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Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

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Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#161

Post by tannhaeuser »

osrec wrote: post #147
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did privacy come in this discussion? If you are going to be fear-mongering based on vague assertions and appeals to business models, it would be wise to mention the 30% fee on all digital transactions that Apple extorts from all its apps. It is very clear that Apple doesn't want to lose that control (and revenue) to the Web, which despite the attempts of all corporations (including at times Google), still manag…

Some people are happy to buy the Apple speil re privacy to knock web apps, all while using apps like Tiktok that'll probably violate their privacy much more than a PWA ever could. The privacy argument is without basis, imo. Google is terrible on privacy too, and somewhat evil, and its browser is terrible at managing memory (I say this to prove I'm not a Google fanboy!) but at least it's not stifling innovation on the…

There are people who don't want Google's "innovations" as they turn browsers into monstrosities that nobody except Google can maintain, and already have turned the web into the pile of shit of content marketing (with like 500 trackers on every site), service lock-in, cesspool of polarizing clickbait and propaganda, hopeless web app crap, and place where content creators get screwed that it is today. Saying this as someone with a very heavy time investment into web tech. Compare this with the useful web we used to have 10 years ago. Apple is no saint, but there's a difference between resistance to social-engineer open standards into a monopolistic enslavement machine and race to the bottom vs "stifling innovation".

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#162

Post by tasogare »

querez wrote: post #160

Admittedly it might be my fault for living under a rock, but I don't know what PWA stands for. The fact that the linked article uses the acronym without ever writing out its long form even once rubs me the wrong way. For those like me who are in the dark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application

It stands for Poor-experience Web Applications. It’s basically website + more JavaScript to get some features somewhat working without network. It’s marketed as the next generation tech for mobile web application but the truth is that without access to the underlying API it’s hard to even get close to native capabilities. And as the web is already super bloated I don’t think it would be a good idea to add more.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#163

Post by Doctor_Fegg »

osrec wrote: post #152
Jonnax wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed their point. Apple only allows the Safari browser engine to run on their phone. So Google (and other web developers) can't do what they do on other platforms which is only test their website on Chrome or block users of other browsers. For example, Firefox on Android gets a crap Google search from like 2005 unless you spoof your user agent and it works perfectly. By that mandate has kept complete control ov…

I've very rarely seen a website block a user because of their browser in the last 10 years. If a website doesn't work in Safari, it just doesn't work. That's it. I do know that devs have to work A LOT harder to get things to work in Safari when compared to Chrome or Firefox. It's like Safari is the new Internet explorer.

I last had it two days ago. Zencaster: requires Firefox or Chrome, won’t work with Safari.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#164

Post by arcturus17 »

rchaud wrote: post #107
zelly wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWAs would be very off brand for iOS. It would allow all kinds of spammy low-quality apps to masquerade as iOS apps without any vetting from Apple. Part of Apple's success is their extreme stubbornness. They decide something and make zero compromises. The consumer tech industry is forced to fall in line with whatever they want; they have final veto power over all new consumer tech basically.

You describe the iOS app store as some kind of zen garden of curated software, when it's full off the same kind of spammy apps that pollute other app stores. When the app inventory numbers in the million plus, it is impossible for every one to be reviewed for quality, or to be distinct from others already in the store. The purpose of the App Store was to ensure that Apple got a cut of every dollar flowing through the…

Yea, some people have rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Apple.

I downloaded a simple HIIT (high-intensity interval training) timer app the other day. It's just a glorified stop timer that automatically pauses at intervals so you can do exercise-rest cycles.

I settled for the second or third most popular alternative since it was the first one that didn't have a HIIT-timer-as-a-service business model (WTF... no, I don't want to create an account for a timer app).

Still a disgusting experience. Before you start an exercise there's an obnoxious 10-second video ad playing at full blast. The interface is atrocious, too.

The app was free, so I can't complain on that front, I guess. I would pay $3-$6 flat for something like this, but herein lies the problem: I can't even find such an alternative. The results in the app store search were filled with garbage (SaaS as I mentioned, irrelevant crap, bloated "fitness assistant" apps, etc.)

I could definitely conceive this app being built as a PWA and being 100x better than many of those. For this use case I couldn't care less about PWA vs. native, both could work if done well; the point is that I really don't see what Apple's supposedly strict standards have done to protect my user experience from greedy, incompetent or careless designers and developers.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#165

Post by comex »

stephenhuey wrote: post #123
skrowl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to guess you're on iOS where you don't actually have Firefox (or any other actual browsers besides Safari). Firefox on iOS (like all iOS browsers) is required by App store rules to basically just skin Safari. On Android, Firefox is the MOST usable browser.

I’m typing this in Firefox on iOS and it works great for me, so perhaps the comment was slightly out-of-date? Also just put Firefox Developer Edition on my new MacBook and it feels much smoother than Firefox from a year ago.

Firefox on iOS is not actually Firefox.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#166

Post by iggldiggl »

notatoad wrote: post #70
k__ wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, would be cool. Firefox is currently unusable on mobile :/

I find Firefox Preview (with ublock origin enabled) to be the most usable of all the mobile browsers i've tried. Chrome has a few nice things going for it, but i'd rather have ublock.

I can somewhat understand why they decided to do the total rewrite, but to my mind it still suffers from all the things described in Spolsky's "Things-You-Should-Never-Do": A standstill on the old version for a very long time (actually that already preceeded the rewrite somwhat, though the latter certainly didn't help in that regard), lots of missing features in the new version (each of which might – mostly – only be a small feature when viewed individually, but taken together it's still a noticeable bit that's currently missing), and of course a number of bugs introduced through the rewrite that need to be ironed out once again (occasionally quite literally "once again").

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#167

Post by rimliu »

julianlam wrote: post #109
zelly wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWAs would be very off brand for iOS. It would allow all kinds of spammy low-quality apps to masquerade as iOS apps without any vetting from Apple. Part of Apple's success is their extreme stubbornness. They decide something and make zero compromises. The consumer tech industry is forced to fall in line with whatever they want; they have final veto power over all new consumer tech basically.

The stubbornness of iOS is a large part of why PWAs haven't been broadly adopted. At some point their hardline stance will backfire.

Yeah yeah, PWAs will win. Any day day now. They have beeb winning for ten years already. The very first third party apps on iPhone were PWAs. iPhone was the place where canvas and CSS animations, etc. first appeared. Yet when SDK appeared developers and users preferred native. With a reason.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#168

Post by anaganisk »

tasogare wrote: post #162
querez wrote: post #160

Admittedly it might be my fault for living under a rock, but I don't know what PWA stands for. The fact that the linked article uses the acronym without ever writing out its long form even once rubs me the wrong way. For those like me who are in the dark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application

It stands for Poor-experience Web Applications. It’s basically website + more JavaScript to get some features somewhat working without network. It’s marketed as the next generation tech for mobile web application but the truth is that without access to the underlying API it’s hard to even get close to native capabilities. And as the web is already super bloated I don’t think it would be a good idea to add more.

Finally, someone who puts it, a website must be a website, an app must be an app. I don't understand why people go crazy for an abomination of dead service workers for something that runs on APIs almost all the time.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#169

Post by achempion »

querez wrote: post #160

Admittedly it might be my fault for living under a rock, but I don't know what PWA stands for. The fact that the linked article uses the acronym without ever writing out its long form even once rubs me the wrong way. For those like me who are in the dark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application

PWA are applications which use certain features: offline mode, service workers, notification API and other browser APIs. They utilise many browser features and behave more like native applications than web, except running in a browser.

Really vague concept without strict definition.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#170

Post by cwills »

millstone wrote: post #95
osrec wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Apple is stifling innovation by not supporting certain APIs. They need to stop doing this, or they will hurt themselves in the long run. As it is, most people use Safari on iOS because they are forced to - all other browsers on iOS are forced to use WKWebView, which basically means they are wrappers around Safari's view. To this day, I can't understand why their users stand for this. In this regard, Apple re…

Apple is making the right decision here. My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." I get to use the mobile web without needing Google. And Apple is the only reason why. Maybe some day, web apps will become so undeniably awesome that Safari's position is untenable. But the agitation is not coming from iOS users missing out on awesome PWAs. Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed t…

>My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." I get to use the mobile web without needing Google. And Apple is the only reason why.

Let's be real though, Apple didn't enforce this to save user's the small annoyance of 'use browser X' popups. Instead it gives them full control over what web APIs are available on iOS devices, so they can avoid implementing those APIs that would impact on their App Store revenue. They have a clear financial benefit in not supporting the PWA technology that would move the 'simpler' apps off their app store and into web - where they wouldn't receive their developer license fees, a cut of paid apps and a cut of paid subscription fees (outrageous). Also, I believe it was Steve Jobs who first shared the vision of web applications on iPhone “that look exactly and behave exactly like native apps” ?

> Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed that they have to actually respect the conventions of the platform they're building for.

Developers already get around this to some extent with cross platform tools such as React Native, Xamarin, Flutter. Native apps will always have a place, PWAs are not going to replace sufficiently complex app experiences, much like on Android or Windows.

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