Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#141

Post by osrec » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:27 AM UTC

millstone wrote: post #95

osrec wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Apple is stifling innovation by not supporting certain APIs. They need to stop doing this, or they will hurt themselves in the long run. As it is, most people use Safari on iOS because they are forced to - all other browsers on iOS are forced to use WKWebView, which basically means they are wrappers around Safari's view. To this day, I can't understand why their users stand for this. In this regard, Apple re…

Apple is making the right decision here. My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." I get to use the mobile web without needing Google. And Apple is the only reason why. Maybe some day, web apps will become so undeniably awesome that Safari's position is untenable. But the agitation is not coming from iOS users missing out on awesome PWAs. Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed t…

Not many websites explicitly require Chrome. I don't know what you mean by 'My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome."'

Why would your iOS device ever need to show such a message, unless it's implemented by the website itself? I don't understand the scenario you're describing at all.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#142

Post by davrous » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:28 AM UTC

Hey! I see a lot of confusions on PWA on what they can or can't do in the comments. I've written an article trying to address that in a fun way: https://www.davrous.com/2019/10/18/myth-busting-pwas-the-new... by busting 9 common myths on Progressive Web Apps. For instance, they can use WASM which is production ready for years in all browsers!

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#143

Post by thefounder » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:48 AM UTC

PWAs are worthless for me until full networking access is provideded(i.e no CORS, set custom headers etc). Until then PWAs are just bookmarks of websites.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#144

Post by no_gravity » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:49 AM UTC

judah wrote: post #41

judah wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Imagine a text editor where all your text documents are gone after you cleared the browser data" One way to address that issue is the native file system access APIs[0] coming soon, available today in Chrome Canary and Edge Canary. There, you'd be able to save your documents to the user's file system, just like a native app would. Those files will be exempt from any browser data clearing. > all infos about which ex…

Also, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, you may also be interested in the Persistent Storage APIs: https://web.dev/persistent-storage/

From how I read it, this reduces the probability that the data gets deleted due to low disk space / garbage collection:

    Persistent storage can help protect
    critical data from eviction, and
    educe the chance of data loss.

Are you sure this keeps the data when the user deletes their browser data? To me it sounds like it does not:

    Persistent storage is not deleted by the browser,
    even if storage is running low. It will only be
    deleted if the user chooses to remove it via
    their site settings.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#145

Post by lern_too_spel » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 7:02 AM UTC

millstone wrote: post #131

lern_too_spel wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GGP was talking about iOS devices specifically, and I showed how they are worse for privacy than their alternatives due to long-standing and long-complained-about practices by Apple. Do you disagree? You have not given any reason why anybody should. As far as ad prices, you are citing a report from 2019. Since then, Safari ITP has been thoroughly compromised to the point where it leaks more information when it's on t…

The report is from December 2019, it has relevance in July 2020. Android Chrome does not support uBlock Origin. Mobile Safari prevents more tracking than Chrome, which is reflected in the lower ad prices. "Safari ITP is compromised" is a lie.

> "Safari ITP is compromised" is a lie.

Saying that statement is a lie is itself a lie. https://www.imore.com/google-engineer-says-apples-intelligen...

The way that Apple addressed the ITP bugs is in fact a wonderful example of privacy lip service.

> Android Chrome does not support uBlock Origin.

Android allows you to run actual Firefox, which does support uBlock Origin. As a bonus, it doesn't even require you to tell anybody that you have installed Firefox. That is what actual privacy looks like.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#146

Post by fauigerzigerk » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 7:11 AM UTC

mihaela wrote: post #134

osrec wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man, not sure where to begin with responding to this. I'm not saying Google is incredible (my opinion is quite the contrary actually). However, I am saying Apple is holding the web back, in a fairly annoying way, for developers. The fact that they are a rich corporate does not mean they always will be, or that they're conducting their business in the best way possible. There are plenty of examples of rich tech bus…

"Apple is holding the web back" Nope, Apple is taking care of it's customers and protecting them from Google's ad exploitation. "I feel it may be a similar fate for Apple, and for similar reasons, unless they change their attitude towards the web" On the contrary, if Apple allowed this web Wild West that Google is advocating, then the users would have incentive to switch. This move from Apple actually ensures that th…

>Nope, Apple is taking care of it's customers and protecting them from Google's ad exploitation.

Apple is "protecting" its customers by restricting and patronising them like little children. Privacy by default is good, but many of their restrictions are clearly aimed at rent seeking.

Where customers really need protection, Apple is stabbing them in the back by aiding and abetting human rights abuses with their pointless side-loading ban and their willingness to let dictators run their own iCloud service.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#147

Post by osrec » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 7:12 AM UTC

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #87

alwillis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this regard, Apple reminds me of a cult leader brainwashing their followers into believing the cult's way is the best way. Makes me a little sick actually. Are you sure you aren’t the one being brainwashed? Why should anyone trust Google, since they make virtually all of their revenue from ad tech, which means tracking users across the web, even when they don't want to be. Advertisers are Google's customers, not t…

Where did privacy come in this discussion? If you are going to be fear-mongering based on vague assertions and appeals to business models, it would be wise to mention the 30% fee on all digital transactions that Apple extorts from all its apps. It is very clear that Apple doesn't want to lose that control (and revenue) to the Web, which despite the attempts of all corporations (including at times Google), still manag…

Some people are happy to buy the Apple speil re privacy to knock web apps, all while using apps like Tiktok that'll probably violate their privacy much more than a PWA ever could.

The privacy argument is without basis, imo. Google is terrible on privacy too, and somewhat evil, and its browser is terrible at managing memory (I say this to prove I'm not a Google fanboy!) but at least it's not stifling innovation on the web.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#148

Post by bitL » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 7:13 AM UTC

judah wrote: post #33

no_gravity wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping the user logged in is not the issue. A PWA can inject a unique ID into the installation in various ways. The problem is the data. Imagine a text editor where all your text documents are gone after you cleared the data of a different app, the browser. I wrote a fitness app as a PWA some time ago and its pretty annoying to download all the instruction videos again every time you clear your "browser data". Plus…

> "Imagine a text editor where all your text documents are gone after you cleared the browser data" One way to address that issue is the native file system access APIs[0] coming soon, available today in Chrome Canary and Edge Canary. There, you'd be able to save your documents to the user's file system, just like a native app would. Those files will be exempt from any browser data clearing. > all infos about which ex…

> native file system access APIs[0]

Come on, stop giving people false hope, that API is like 3rd incarnation of the same thing by Google, always shot down by Mozilla and Apple. Even today if you restrict yourself to Chrome your PWA can use the older version of the same thing, but what's the point if that works only in Chrome?

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#149

Post by Jonnax » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 7:14 AM UTC

osrec wrote: post #141

millstone wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is making the right decision here. My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." I get to use the mobile web without needing Google. And Apple is the only reason why. Maybe some day, web apps will become so undeniably awesome that Safari's position is untenable. But the agitation is not coming from iOS users missing out on awesome PWAs. Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed t…

Not many websites explicitly require Chrome. I don't know what you mean by 'My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome."' Why would your iOS device ever need to show such a message, unless it's implemented by the website itself? I don't understand the scenario you're describing at all.

You missed their point.

Apple only allows the Safari browser engine to run on their phone.

So Google (and other web developers) can't do what they do on other platforms which is only test their website on Chrome or block users of other browsers.

For example, Firefox on Android gets a crap Google search from like 2005 unless you spoof your user agent and it works perfectly.

By that mandate has kept complete control over the browser space from Google.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#150

Post by bitL » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 7:16 AM UTC

no_gravity wrote: post #24

judah wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Good for users" was in the context of PWAs, not installed PWAs. Clearly the user's expectation is that clearing browsing data will clear data for web apps they navigate to in the browser. Installed PWAs is another question. I suspect users will be surprised if they clear their browsing data only to discover they have to login again to Twitter, for example. I may raise this question to the Edge Chromium team. I'm cer…

Keeping the user logged in is not the issue. A PWA can inject a unique ID into the installation in various ways. The problem is the data. Imagine a text editor where all your text documents are gone after you cleared the data of a different app, the browser. I wrote a fitness app as a PWA some time ago and its pretty annoying to download all the instruction videos again every time you clear your "browser data". Plus…

PWA is useless for any non-toy desktop-replacement apps in its current state because of what you mentioned.