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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#161
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! I have trouble supporting a child in Greece, with a gross household income of around 50k. I most certainly do not lead a luxurious life. I shudder to think how this would work out in Western Europe where rents are even higher than the ~500 euro most people pay here for a medium sized apartment.

I guess, I should speak to my experiences only.

My mother alone, as a cleaning lady, was fully supporting me on 30 000 salary in Belgium, Leuven. But as a cleaning lady, earning that money was not easy, or stress free. She was doing 50-60 hours weeks. I know cleaning ladies, my mother colleagues, who as a single mother support their kids and sometimes even manage to spare some money to send back home. I know that there are also people exploiting western social programs to the extend that they manage to live exclusively on child support. My mother has a neighbor who was laughing that she is silly to work, because she has Belgian fiancée and she should live off social support. And, yes, this type of people should be deported in my opinion.

Right now, I'm studying now in Maastricht, Netherlands and I work 1 day a week earning 8k gross a year. I'm living with my fiancée in apartment with one bedroom and I spent around 10k a year.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#162
post #155
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

> But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you. Why does wanting more imply having people underneath you? Your comment is full of frustration, hatred and anger, it doesn't have any argument in it. I hope you can see that. The main issue stems from the fact that Europeans have a different lifestyle, therefore, moving forward for them implies having actually higher…

> however, as a local citizen wishing to improve my country and the average income, why would I care about people coming from other countries? I mean, what do I get in return?

The main point of contention is not about whether this would improve the quality of life of the average EU programmer. It is about concealing what is just naked self-interest (i.e. concern about one's own wages) with noble talk of 'inequality'. I don't think there's anything wrong with concern for one's own interests, but trying to phrase it as a worry about something else comes off as a bit disingenuous.

Secondly, this just smacks of protectionism. If everyone thought the same way, we would have nowhere close to the diverse array of goods available to the modern consumer at such low prices.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have enough skilled workers in the EU. No you don't. Companies have to prove that they couldn't find a person who fits the position before hiring. Otherwise they have to hire someone in EU.

Tho whole we couldn't find anyone in the EU for this job spiel that companies play is just a immigration scam approved with a rubber stamp by the authorities. Let me fill you in on how it works: Company puts up job ad with a salary so low no one in their right mind would even consider applying for. After 30 days of no applications(what a surprise) company goes to the local authorities and tells them that no one in th…

>Company puts up job ad with a salary so low no one in their right mind would even consider applying for. After 30 days of no applications(what a surprise) company goes to the local authorities and tells them that no one in the EU applied and that it's already hurting their business an suddenly, BAM!, working visa secured for the next gullible fool who doesn't know the market.

Exactly this. And to make sure that no one applies, they add bogus requirements to the job like fluency in Russian/Hindi when hiring programmers. From the companies that I see doing this here, Red Hat seems to be the most egregious.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#164
post #95

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

Rich to hear Indians feeling entitled to EU immigration when the Indians just happily passed a law against Muslim immigration.

Letting poor muslims compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality. It undermines your position of power.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#165
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're attacking a straw man here. Chinese and Indian people can certainly compete with European people, and they do it everyday. But they can do it from China and India.

The GP thinks its about "getting even", as if China and India were naive, noble backwaters the devious Europeans pulled the wool over and secretly exploited in 1700s. When really, they got out competed in trade and on the battlefield by the Europeans.

By the governments and private corporations (like east India company) supported by the people ... Your comment implies as if bunch of people decided to colonise the entire world outside Europe on their own whims ...

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#166
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

> But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. If that was the case, birthrates wouldn't be so low in Europe. Free school and healthcare doesn't support your family when rents are higher than ever and fewer people than ever can afford to buy a property to raise a family in.

I haven't seen any evidence that birthrates have anything to do with having a high income in developed economies. All the evidence I have seen points in the other direction, where when women's education and career are de-emphasized by the society, the birthrates are high.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#167
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce? The expectation seems to be we will go back to a sharp division between property owners and eternal tenants, like it was when my 95 year old grandparents were kids. The Old World still likes its Feudalism it seems.

Is it better in the US? San Fancisco / NY / Boston sound way worse despite way higher wages. I don't really hear much from people outside of those places.

You can get a nice 1BR in or close to NY for $2000 USD. Working in NY the average tech salary all in for someone with a few years of experience is $150k.

Working as a developer in the USA is way better than being a developer in Europe.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP thinks its about "getting even", as if China and India were naive, noble backwaters the devious Europeans pulled the wool over and secretly exploited in 1700s. When really, they got out competed in trade and on the battlefield by the Europeans.

By the governments and private corporations (like east India company) supported by the people ... Your comment implies as if bunch of people decided to colonise the entire world outside Europe on their own whims ...

The European governments and private corporations were made up of and supported by private citizens, were they not?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#169

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

Throwaway because I founded a startup in Europe and don't want the name associated.

I blame European R&D subsidies for this. Basically anything you can imagine a software engineer doing can be subsidised by an EU Grant.

These grants are usually paid as a reimbursement for hours worked, i.e 42% up to a maximum of 100€/h including overheads. Therefore companies maximize hours by favoring multiple cheap engineers.

My hunch is that more jobs are salary capped due to this than immigration, and if the salaries actually went up then the job positions would basically evaporate.

Don't get me started by the ridiculous wastes that go into administrating these grant programs. I tell my European friends: Europe administrates its wealth away and saves whatever is left over.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#170
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

> But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. If that was the case, birthrates wouldn't be so low in Europe. Free school and healthcare doesn't support your family when rents are higher than ever and fewer people than ever can afford to buy a property to raise a family in.

If you live in the EU, downshift! With stable $30k you can easily buy a seaside villa in Bulgaria on a 7 year credit with today rates.
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