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Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

nytimes.com

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Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#161

Post by criddell »

ryacko wrote: post #36
burnte wrote: post #10

Noooooo! When I ehard about backpage being shut down because it was the biggest place for child sex trafficking, I said it was the dumbest move they could make. You have a website with the vast majority of illegal sex traffickers COMING TO YOU, and you close it? Why? Make BP a deal, give the FBI an office to scan everything so they can go after child sex traffickers, and you can stay open. We'd have arrested thousand…

If you can't speak English to the prostitute or she seems afraid, it would be a suspicious situation. "child sex traffickers" I don't know where you get that from.

That's what it's called if the person you are paying for sex with is not an adult.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#162

Post by imtringued »

thundergolfer wrote: post #117
0xBA5ED wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is "legislating morality" refers to pushing legislation based solely on moral concerns. There are other reasons to outlaw murder than just morality.

All those other concerns bear out as moral concerns. Much legislation is technocratic and hides its moralism, but it’s all questions of right and wrong, good and bad, at the end of the day.

And it's mostly wrong.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#163

Post by arnoooooo »

jessaustin wrote: post #134
capitol_ wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prevent people from being prostitutes against their will The important part here is if you include economic factors into "against their will" or not.

Do those factors have the same meaning when someone would rather not be e.g. a cleaner or an orderly at a nursing home? Those jobs are physical and not so pleasant. They pay much less than prostitution. Yet, many people are so employed.

Prostitution is still about selling what is most intimate, not really the same.

Also, how are we supposed to reach gender equality if one gender's body is for sale as a matter of routine ?

Note that I still agree with your point on being a cleaner, that's why I think universal income is a good idea.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#164

Post by theli0nheart »

wallace_f wrote: post #144
antihero wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends and ex-partners who are sex workers and seeing this stuff come into action, seeing them get denied at borders, seeing their lives become ever more dangerous has been utterly soul crushing. Sex worker rights is a huge frontier that we need to fight harder on, sex trafficking and sex work are two different things, and spiting workers because you find them unsavoury or want to be their saviour under the v…

I'm always puzzled by all the Americans who travel to Asia for all the local markets: everything from food, to personal care, to sex markets, to even medical care. My dental care in Taiwan has been extraordinarily cheap and very good. And yet then I come back to America and see the same people ostensibly support the same authoritarian politicians, police and bureaucrats who spend taxpayer money on authoritarian polic…

I read through your comment twice and am still confused why it’s puzzling that Americans would travel to Asia for the local markets. If it’s cheaper, and the same or similar quality, why wouldn’t they?

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#165

Post by stef25 »

Thorentis wrote: post #94
paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

Let's not forget the idea that it could be possible for a female sex worker to consensually engage in her job.

Not in the sense of "They'll murder my family if I don't" but just choosing to do it out of her own free will.

I chatted to a prostitute in Thailand, she came from the poor North to work as a sex worker in Bangkok and she was fairly proud of the fact she was sending so much money home to her parents, living in a village where pretty much the only thing you can do is farm.

She showed me a picture of the car her dad was able to buy and kept stressing "it's a 4 door!". She was a genuinely happy and fun loving girl.

To me the shocking thing in this story is a man driving around in a car paid for by his daughter by fellating 300+ men per year, but not the fact this girl decided to do this for a living.

> Do you think murder is immoral?

The story of Armin Meiwes comes to mind, who killed and ate a man who volunteered to have done that to him. There's also the concept of consensual homicide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensual_homicide

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#166

Post by arnoooooo »

0xBA5ED wrote: post #143
thundergolfer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those other concerns bear out as moral concerns. Much legislation is technocratic and hides its moralism, but it’s all questions of right and wrong, good and bad, at the end of the day.

Not so. There are considerations of tangible consequences for some unconsenting third party. That's the difference. Outlawing something "because it's wrong" is different than outlawing something because it wrongs someone.

There is no definition of "because it's wrong" where no one is wronged, unless you bring in religion.

Still, someone can be wronged with their consent. Consent is not binary. That's why there are minimum salary laws for instance : so that there's not a competition to the bottom.

When it comes to prostitution, the fact that huge numbers of prostitutes are former victims of abuse, for instance, should tell you that something is wrong. And even then, I would say that the minority who could be unambiguously considered to be doing it voluntarily is doing a disservice to women and society in general, by promoting the idea that bodies and what is most intimate can be for sale.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#167

Post by stef25 »

tomp wrote: post #150
Thorentis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

A lot of people argue that "consensual murder" (a.k.a. euthanasia ) should be legal (with the appropriate safeguards to prevent abuse). Edit: Actually I retract this comment. You bring an interesting point, and shouldn't be downvoted. I guess the argument "to prevent abuse" includes "to prevent people from exchanging their lives for money". And you could say the same for sex - people should be able to choose to have…

Euthanasia doesn't fit the description of consensual murder. I'm not sure how ... I guess euthanasia is more of a medical procedure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensual_homicide

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#168

Post by wallace_f »

theli0nheart wrote: post #164
wallace_f wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always puzzled by all the Americans who travel to Asia for all the local markets: everything from food, to personal care, to sex markets, to even medical care. My dental care in Taiwan has been extraordinarily cheap and very good. And yet then I come back to America and see the same people ostensibly support the same authoritarian politicians, police and bureaucrats who spend taxpayer money on authoritarian polic…

I read through your comment twice and am still confused why it’s puzzling that Americans would travel to Asia for the local markets. If it’s cheaper, and the same or similar quality, why wouldn’t they?

My intended meaning was that it is puzzling why Americans ostensibly tolerate policies which eliminate those markets, but only after they come back.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#169

Post by imtringued »

istjohn wrote: post #40
roenxi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed a fairly large FOR - people who support freedom & liberty. The arguments against prostitution centre around its second order effects on greater society and is a crime with hypothetical rather than actual victims. The argument that there should be a victim of some sort before criminalising something is compelling. It is difficult to argue that the prostitutes feel they are victims of prostitution without…

Freedom and liberty is one argument for legalization, but I don't think there are enough hard core Libertarians to be a major force in this debate.

Usually women are fighting for more or the same rights. Why would they fight to restrict their own rights?

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#170

Post by School-Cotton »

hiram112 wrote: post #44
paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

It isn't just the religious right that pushes for backwards prostitution laws. It is also... feminists. Aren't feminists always going on about "my body, my right" when it comes to abortion and other forms of contraceptives? Of course, but when it comes to prostitution, they seem to take a 'differing' view. Why? When prostitution is decriminalized, the price of sex goes down, as would be expected in any market where t…

Some self-described feminists think prostitution should be legal, and some don’t. There’s not one uniform “feminist opinion” on the subject.

As for those who are against it, sure, maybe some reason in the cynical way you describe. But I think the lion’s share are motivated by other reasons. Typically they argue that prostitution is coercive, as you can’t call something “consensual” that someone needs to do to survive.

Personally I think prostitution should be just as legal as any other kind of work; but that’s not a license to grossly misinterpret the arguments of those who disagree.

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