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Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

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Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#161

Post by Wowfunhappy »

zaroth wrote: post #151
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument was users should have the ability to run whatever code they want on their iPhones. That is actually possible today. Technically possible, fine. But there's a big gulf between "possible" and "not extremely painful". Let's say I create a personal fork of the open source Bitwarden password manager, to add some trivial quirk that makes the software better fit my life. How do you propose I actually use my c…

It sounds like the problem you have isn't that it's not possible, but that it's not free (as in beer). The free account is good for playing around with the environment and learning how to write code for iOS. It is not well suited for running production software on your phone. If you want to run production software on your phone, blessed or unblessed , you probably want to pay Apple $100/yr for the longer duration and…

Allowing side-loading would probably contribute to app piracy somewhat, but I don't think it would have as large an effect as you describe. Android's customer base is less wealthy overall, and less likely to have payment information in the play store. I would look to Mac rather than Android for a more realistic picture of what the piracy landscape would look like. It's not bad.

But, I also fundamentally believe we shouldn't be restricting user freedoms to protect copyright.

$100 a year is completely and utterly cost-prohibitive for a lot of people, even within the context of someone who already owns an iPhone. A lot of children begin coding so they can create something for themselves, or change one thing in an application. With a 7-day limit, who would want to do that? While it's true that free accounts can technically experiment with coding, there's not much incentive when you can't really _use_ anything you've created.

I worry about a generation of children who is given iPads rather than computers. Sure, most of them would never have touched code anyway, and that's fine. But iOS completely removes the incentive to learn and explore—to actually hack and tweak and create the tools we use everyday, instead of blindly consuming them.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#162

Post by forgottenpass »

zapzupnz wrote: post #94
dessant wrote: post #6

It's unfortunate how Apple and Google approach device ownership, and their attitude towards the concept of general computing is concerning. We do not control our own devices, we cannot stop certain processes on them, and we do not know where our personal data is sent. We either have to flash ROMs from questionable sources and apply temporary exploits to get some kind of resemblance of control of our own devices, or w…

Goodness me it gets tiring seeing a post like this every time an article about iOS comes up. It's a legitimate point to make, but it should rather be that we talk about the content of the article rather than bring out the 'Apple's taking our freedom away' soapbox. It inevitably turns into a debate between one side who values personal freedoms but won't be told to buy Android phones widespread safety, security, and pr…

> This goes around and around, usually getting nobody anywhere, and happens all over again the next time

A security regression in a new software release is a much older type of story that just gets talked in circles too.

>it should rather be that we talk about the content of the article

iPhones are jailbreakable again. Whoop-de-doo. What are we supposed to say about it?

Might as well talk about the system design that makes owners of devices getting root on them considered a flaw in the first place.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#163

Post by AnthonyMouse »

UncleMeat wrote: post #154
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need something similar to Godwin's law where anyone who argues that people don't care about something automatically loses the argument. Of course people don't care more about iPhones than their own kids. Pick just about any X and people don't care more about X than their own kids. That doesn't mean X doesn't matter, or people wouldn't care more about it if the understood it better, or wouldn't be better off if it…

If we polled all smartphone owners and asked them how much they would pay to be able to own their phone in the way that Stallman owns his computer I'd bet a large amount of money that the median would be 0 cents and the average would be less than 1 cent. This isn't just a question of caring less. The huge majority of users do not care at all about this.

If we polled all smartphone owners and asked them who Stallman is, the majority of them wouldn't be able to tell you. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect them.

And if you're talking about a poll where you ask people whether they would like to have a larger selection of apps for their phone, or they think it should be easier for small developers to enter the market, or they think Google should have more control over their phone than they do, the majority of people are not going to choose less apps and less freedom at the same price.

The fact that you have to put it against dollars to get them to do what you want is just leveraging the fact that the median user is not rich to claim that nobody wants something that everybody wants because everybody also wants to save money (and the implication that the median person values it at less than a penny is hyperbole). Why should you have to pay extra for freedom? Should only the rich have it?

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#164

Post by zaroth »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #161
zaroth wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem you have isn't that it's not possible, but that it's not free (as in beer). The free account is good for playing around with the environment and learning how to write code for iOS. It is not well suited for running production software on your phone. If you want to run production software on your phone, blessed or unblessed , you probably want to pay Apple $100/yr for the longer duration and…

Allowing side-loading would probably contribute to app piracy somewhat, but I don't think it would have as large an effect as you describe. Android's customer base is less wealthy overall, and less likely to have payment information in the play store. I would look to Mac rather than Android for a more realistic picture of what the piracy landscape would look like. It's not bad. But, I also fundamentally believe we sh…

> I worry about a generation of children who is given iPads rather than computers.

I’m pretty sure they said the same thing about shells when GUI came along.

> But iOS completely removes the incentive to learn and explore...

I guess I just have an entirely different perspective on this. If the PC was a bicycle for the mind, what we have now is a veritable rocket ship. Consider the devices, peripherals, platforms, APIs, connectivity, distribution, and tooling that is available today for anyone with any interest in creative artistic expression, be it coding, non-textual programming, or otherwise...

Anyone with a inventive flair is going to look at the mind-bogglingly advanced technology that a billion people are carrying around and just salivate at the opportunity that provides.

Modern devices and the modern Internet may placate the masses, but they are likewise catnip and catapult for anyone who wants to code the next great solution for Problem X.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#165

Post by pier25 »

TacticalTable wrote: post #150
pier25 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is that because there are more users it needs to be more secure?

My argument is primarily that if somebody is looking to infect users, are they going to target the 86%, or the 13%? Macs have benefited for years by largely not being targeted by the majority of malware developers. If mobile devices open the walled garden, you get something similar to android's malware issues at best .

iOS does not have a 86% market share. Not even close. Globally it's closer to 15%. In the US it's closer to 55%.

If you argue that the 86% is the case on certain demographics, then the same can be argued about macOS.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#166

Post by TacticalTable »

pier25 wrote: post #165
TacticalTable wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is primarily that if somebody is looking to infect users, are they going to target the 86%, or the 13%? Macs have benefited for years by largely not being targeted by the majority of malware developers. If mobile devices open the walled garden, you get something similar to android's malware issues at best .

iOS does not have a 86% market share. Not even close. Globally it's closer to 15%. In the US it's closer to 55%. If you argue that the 86% is the case on certain demographics, then the same can be argued about macOS.

The demographic argument is what I'm going with. MacOS is 18%, compared to Windows at 74% [1]. When comparing the mobile statistics, they're bouncing around 50%. The iOS pool would be a much larger pool to attack than MacOS, and for little financial benefit for Apple.

My prediction: If Apple opened the garden, even for a 'developer only' mode, I would imagine unregulated app stores would go up overnight, with wikihow articles on how to enable and install them, followed by a large amount of the technically illiterate (speaking from experience) trying to get free games, or 'add new emojis'. Users can't be trusted, and if consumer desktop operating systems were designed today, they wouldn't have the freedom they currently have.

[1]: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st... (Not entirely sure on the accuracy/gathering of this data, but it had the easy filtering and seems to line up with both of our data points)

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#167

Post by pier25 »

TacticalTable wrote: post #166
pier25 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS does not have a 86% market share. Not even close. Globally it's closer to 15%. In the US it's closer to 55%. If you argue that the 86% is the case on certain demographics, then the same can be argued about macOS.

The demographic argument is what I'm going with. MacOS is 18%, compared to Windows at 74% [1]. When comparing the mobile statistics, they're bouncing around 50%. The iOS pool would be a much larger pool to attack than MacOS, and for little financial benefit for Apple. My prediction: If Apple opened the garden, even for a 'developer only' mode, I would imagine unregulated app stores would go up overnight, with wikihow…

> followed by a large amount of the technically illiterate (speaking from experience) trying to get free games, or 'add new emojis'

I agree some people would do it... but I doubt it would be such a large number. Do you have any data about this?

Users can already do that in Windows, macOS, and Android. From my anecdotal experience very few do it.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#168

Post by TacticalTable »

pier25 wrote: post #167
TacticalTable wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demographic argument is what I'm going with. MacOS is 18%, compared to Windows at 74% [1]. When comparing the mobile statistics, they're bouncing around 50%. The iOS pool would be a much larger pool to attack than MacOS, and for little financial benefit for Apple. My prediction: If Apple opened the garden, even for a 'developer only' mode, I would imagine unregulated app stores would go up overnight, with wikihow…

> followed by a large amount of the technically illiterate (speaking from experience) trying to get free games, or 'add new emojis' I agree some people would do it... but I doubt it would be such a large number. Do you have any data about this? Users can already do that in Windows, macOS, and Android. From my anecdotal experience very few do it.

> I agree some people would do it... but I doubt it would be such a large number. Do you have any data about this?

No, nothing more than anecdotal. But I'd argue 'some people' when you're operating on the scale of the hundreds of millions-billions that Apple operates at, would still be hundreds of thousands of support requests from users who have inadvertently made their phone unusable (using some jailbreak tweaks as a reference) to extremely annoying (referencing many android apps that abuse push notifications for advertising).

> Users can already do that in Windows, macOS, and Android. From my anecdotal experience very few do it.

I used to work IT for a school system, and I had an entirely different experience. Teachers would occasionally ask for help with their personal laptops (without our AD) and they were near universally a minefield of toolbars and adware. There's obviously some self-selection in there, but if the 5% of teachers couldn't handle a computer responsibly, that would be a big problem for Apple if they added more ways for users to screw themselves.

Of course, all this is anecdotal, so I'm not expecting this conversation to really convert either of us.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#169

Post by papermachete »

zaroth wrote: post #153
papermachete wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is the complaint? That Apple's investment of billions into the ecosystem is not an argument I see valid, given the alternatives. >all software must be free. Heavens, that's not what I'm saying. I find it contradictory that Apple have open sourced an entire operating system and an entire kernel, and are kvetching over a mere privilege to begin approaching a distro of their OS. I'm not fighting the freedom fight, I'm…

I think they are trying to protect a billion dollar ecosystem which is their App Store. Apple's App Store earns developers something like 50%+ more revenue than equivalent apps on Android. No small part of that is due to the ease of piracy on Android. I do not see any contradiction, nor any "bait-and-switch". The operating system and a kernel are not the services engine which keeps their company running. Open sourcin…

The very foundation their ecosystem runs on is free and open source, and up for grabs for forking and modification. However, their proprietary app store is not, and neither is force-loading my own custom apps. In my point of view, this is where I see the contradiction.

Granted the worldwide open source community has had and has nearly zero interest in making a darwin distro with a minimalistic tiling window manager, or anything similar. Yet I see gnu/linux developers create dozens of linux distros and dozens of functionally identical window managers. So much for side-rant.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#170

Post by pier25 »

TacticalTable wrote: post #168
pier25 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> followed by a large amount of the technically illiterate (speaking from experience) trying to get free games, or 'add new emojis' I agree some people would do it... but I doubt it would be such a large number. Do you have any data about this? Users can already do that in Windows, macOS, and Android. From my anecdotal experience very few do it.

> I agree some people would do it... but I doubt it would be such a large number. Do you have any data about this? No, nothing more than anecdotal. But I'd argue 'some people' when you're operating on the scale of the hundreds of millions-billions that Apple operates at, would still be hundreds of thousands of support requests from users who have inadvertently made their phone unusable (using some jailbreak tweaks as…

I work in edtech and I can only agree that teachers are some of the more tech illiterate users I've ever seen. :)

But yeah, without any solid data we will both stick to our anecdotal experiences.

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