Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#161

Post by mlevental » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #160

mlevental wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

again you're missing a key normative word: should. i said should. i'm well aware that they do. i don't think they should . like i keep saying - which is why i will vote always vote for minimum wage increases.

What I'm saying is, raising the minimum wage does not make market forces go away. It just changes the input to those forces. Look at San Francisco. Even people who earn far, far above minimum wage have a hard time affording housing there. The existence of high incomes didn't magically make market forces go away. The only way a market goes away is if the supply of something is so high that it is effectively worthless,…

i'm not clueless - i'm very familiar with supply/demand economics. my point is simply that saying we should raise housing supply is very convenient when none of us are real estate developers (and the developers aren't saying that). are you going to quit your job and start developing real estate at cost? no. am i? no. are the policy makers going to do it? no. so it's a completely feckless remark (increase housing supply).

my ultimate point is therefore that you have almost no other policy levers than the minimum wage.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#162

Post by uwuhn » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

sdinsn wrote: post #137

alistairSH wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't. The article is about renting a 2-bedroom home. And nowhere do they limit the definition of "home" to "free standing, detached dwelling" - I believe their figures include 2-bedroom apartments as well.

Apologies- I meant to write rent. Even if their numbers include 2 BR apts, my point still stands: a single person affording rent for a 2 BR apt is not a reasonable baseline for a living wage .

It's not, but what's your argument for why it shouldn't be?

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#163

Post by RhysU » Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 2:06 AM UTC

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #154

TylerE wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A somewhat ironic example given the subject at hand https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-management-news/201... "House prices in Singapore are considered “seriously unaffordable”, with a median multiple of 4.6, which means that the median house price is 4.6 times the city-state’s median household income, according to an annual survey."

I was referring to the public housing, not the market housing. If you’re a citizen it’s not terribly difficult to get your own unit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore This is how you preserve existing communities--it should be harder to move into a city than to stay there.

Why should existing folks be given preferential access to urban job markets? No one born outside a city chose to be born there.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#164

Post by RhysU » Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #106

xienze wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What everyone fails to realize is that every job has a maximum value associated with it, and therefore a maximum wage, assuming your employer isn’t in the business of losing money. When you raise the minimum wage to $X/hr, by necessity employers (again, in the interests of not losing money) will no longer be able to offer jobs that generate less than $X/hr in revenue. This becomes a problem for people who lack the sk…

I know what the minimum wage does. I would prefer directly supporting the unemployeable to increase their skills, rather than forcing them to accept multiple minimum wage jobs and have no free time to learn.

...and when you encounter a person whose skills cannot, at present and for whatever reason, be elevated above the minimum wage floor what do you do?

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#165

Post by SomeOldThrow » Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 4:18 AM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #163

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to the public housing, not the market housing. If you’re a citizen it’s not terribly difficult to get your own unit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore This is how you preserve existing communities--it should be harder to move into a city than to stay there.

Why should existing folks be given preferential access to urban job markets? No one born outside a city chose to be born there.

Because without community, what value do job markets have? Life is more than working until you die. Only the rich have the luxury of something more the way cities are headed. This is worth fighting for. If you don’t start with values, you have nothing.

Anyway it’s somewhat of a moot point because you can preserve communities and still build—just not with market-driven rents and landlord-owned cities. And not everyone can have what they want and live where they want. It’s worth it.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#166

Post by true_religion » Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 5:16 AM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #164

true_religion wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what the minimum wage does. I would prefer directly supporting the unemployeable to increase their skills, rather than forcing them to accept multiple minimum wage jobs and have no free time to learn.

...and when you encounter a person whose skills cannot, at present and for whatever reason, be elevated above the minimum wage floor what do you do?

If they can’t be elevated at present or in future, then that ought to be an edge case. If it is widespread then we have a a larger societal problem to deal with than merely setting a minimum wage.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#167

Post by atonse » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:13 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #84

atonse wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe we can actually pay people a wage allowing them to lead some semblance of a decent life? Why does it fall on them, instead of the actual businesses paying them?

I share a house with three other people and I don't have any kids. I quite enjoy my life right now and if I had thinner skin I might take offense from your implication.

I'm saying that if people are not able to have a certain standard of living due to their income, why should it be framed as their fault? Obviously I'm not saying someone should be able to live in a 3000 sq. ft. house when I say "certain standard of living."

In your case, you probably made the choice of your living arrangement, not a choice your employer made for you. That's different.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#168

Post by bluGill » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #142

bluGill wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homeless have problems mostly unrelated to minimum wage.

This claim is based on... what? Your wandering around the tenderloin and judging people? Try visiting shelters, especially in the south bay. There are plenty of families without the problems you mentioned. This attitude is intentional neglect of reality, and its prevalence is literally killing people.

California's problems are the result of years of zoning codes not allowing needed building. (prop 13 doesn't help either) This is simple supply and demand, when you don't allow supply to change (building more suburbs on the outskirts does not count - distance becomes a factor)

(Note, between the time I wrote the earlier comment and this I discovered new information on California's homeless situation - shelters near me the homeless are either mentally ill or victims of domestic violence - the first are forever a problem and the latter will be out in a couple weeks)