Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow • Hacker News Board

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#161

Post by samcday » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:32 AM UTC

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #133

samcday wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think they made many friends. I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. > It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. I agree. > But I firmly believe actively making enemies is probably not the way to go about things.…

> I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. And first making those people your enemies is a good way to persuade them to do it?

I wasn't trying to make the case that it's the best way of doing it. Nor was I even implying that it's a particularly good way of doing it. But I do think that sometimes, it's the only way of doing it.

Also as an aside, I think there's deeper societal problems that we need to face if a few people lying on a road and stopping others from getting to work on time results in those people being considered "enemies".

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#162

Post by wtdata » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

samcday wrote: post #132

civility wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] or we're all doomed! When are we all doomed? Can you put a date (year) on it?

I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)?

How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#163

Post by samcday » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

wtdata wrote: post #159

samcday wrote: post #109

The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…

> However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. If they were really into desperate measures, their actions would be targeting China (you know, that country that now produces more CO2 than all the Western countries combined and that is set to keep greatly increasing it during the next decade), not the only set of developed countries that actually did something and…

I see your point, but I disagree.

The people involved in XR are British citizens. If they were to go to China and start performing acts of civil disobedience, they'd simply be deported (or worse).

Instead, they're trying to effect change in a place where they're afforded civil liberties to do so. I don't claim to speak for that movement, and maybe I'm not even thinking along the same lines as they are, but I would guess their hope is that if they change their home country then that example will help to influence other nations.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#164

Post by samcday » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

threw902309 wrote: post #135

samcday wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, are you a lawyer? I'm really struggling to see how you can interpret the language of the page you linked to include non-violent activism. Could you tell me specifically which sections of that legislation you think apply here?

Targeting critical infrastructure to get what you want is definition of terrorism.

I just want to say I hear you and think there could very well be some interesting nuances that we could discuss. But I have a policy of not engaging with throwaway accounts. If you want to send me an email and discuss this further, then great! My email is in my profile. Or if you want to repost this comment from a non-throwaway account, even better!

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#165

Post by dfawcus » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:39 AM UTC

pas wrote: post #148

dfawcus wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1a -> 2d : creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public 1b : the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation 1c: the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause So XR is an ideological and/or political cause, intended to influence Governments, and this threat to…

Did they create a serious risk?

That would be a fact for the Jury to decide.

I'd rather expect it to conclude they did.

Forget about planes flying (or not).

How much does one of these drones weigh? How much damage or injury would one cause if it falls upon someone or some equipment within the airport grounds? Think of the various flammable liquids in various parts of the airport.

We have rules (and licensing conditions) about flying drones in general, simply because of the serious risk some of them can entail. They came in within the last few years.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#166

Post by lsd5you » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:41 AM UTC

ArtDev wrote: post #156

This is the exact type of short-sighted activism that steps the movement back; not forward. If you treat regular people like the enemy, expect to be treated as such. However, if you go into it calling attention to an issue using humor and goodwill, more people might join your cause. These people are idiots and remind me of PETA.

You don't seem very convinced about your own alternative though do you? More people might join your cause? And maybe they won't. Yet you may be right that they are setting their cause back. In which case there are no answers. We carry on, destined to be governed by crisis.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#167

Post by samcday » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:42 AM UTC

dfawcus wrote: post #141

samcday wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, are you a lawyer? I'm really struggling to see how you can interpret the language of the page you linked to include non-violent activism. Could you tell me specifically which sections of that legislation you think apply here?

1a -> 2d : creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public 1b : the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation 1c: the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause So XR is an ideological and/or political cause, intended to influence Governments, and this threat to…

When I asked if you were a lawyer, I was genuinely curious. I figured if you were linking legislation without actually pointing out specifics, then it might be because your point was so blatantly obvious that only a dummy would not see it as self evident ;)

I disagree with your assessment. I myself am certainly not a lawyer, but the way I interpret that language is for something to be considered an act of terrorism it has to meet a criteria from section [1] AND section [2]. I agree that the planned drone demonstration meets 1c, but I don't think it meets any of the criteria from section 2.

If you're suggesting that because they're disrupting transportation activity then they are somehow creating serious risk to the health and safety of the public, then I wonder what you think of any kind of large scale protest march that closes down the majority of main roads in a capital city? Is that terrorism too?

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#168

Post by notahacker » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:43 AM UTC

dorfsmay wrote: post #90

Lendal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. It makes no sense. If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Why would you buy something that itself has a carbon footprint (manufacturing, distribution) and that will only serve to politically damage the cause you purport to care about? What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered pas…

> If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Like what? We have known about environmental issues for decades, paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get politicians to foerum to tackle the issue and sign treaties that the next guy voted in just decides they don't care, etc, etc, etc... Companies with more money…

And yet changes to UK environmental policy have actually helped bring the UK's carbon emissions down to 19th century levels (yes, caveats about where our stuff is made nowadays apply) and companies with more money than all citizen environmentalist groups put together plough far more money into efficiency savings and renewables than disinformation campaigns.

There's a plausible argument that this isn't enough, but it's difficult to see how an unpopular activist group with little to say on actual solutions to climate change is likely to improve upon this status quo, especially since they actively ruled out engaging with supportive businesses because ultimately the aesthetics of grassroots protest appealed more to them than the opportunity to press for tangible emissions reduction.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#169

Post by samcday » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:45 AM UTC

wtdata wrote: post #162

samcday wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

Sure, there's been plenty of scares in the past. Many of them even seemed extremely legitimate and had plenty of esteemed voices behind them.

But let's not talk in the abstract here. We're talking about climate change now. In 2019. And I believe very strongly that our planet is going through unprecedented changes that are caused by human activity. Those changes will result in suffering for a huge number of fellow members of my beloved species.

If you don't believe the same things I do, that's cool. I truly hope I'm wrong and you're right.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#170

Post by samcday » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:46 AM UTC

civility wrote: post #138

samcday wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)

No joke. Is it 10 years from now, 100 years, or something else?

Kinda bummed that you weren't joking. The tone of these threads is pretty depressing and I could have used a little pick-me-up.

Anyway, I'm not a climatologist, but from what I understand we will be seeing significant global ramifications in the next 2-3 decades. In other words, it's not just the next generation that's going to suffer, it's going to be a great deal many of us who are alive today.