Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#161

Post by Tor3 » Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:40 PM UTC

sridca wrote: post #154

Tor3 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't this true of other nations? Not as a general rule, no. What makes the distinction for me is the dialect they speak and their way of speaking. Then I'll have them firmly identified as 'from that town', or 'that particular part of the country' and there's no way for me to think of them differently. Where their parents came from has no part of it for me or for most people. It's just not possible for my mind to t…

> In my experience small children never make any distinction either, anywhere in the world. Are you familiar with The Clarks' doll experiments? The doll experiment involved a child being presented with two dolls. Both of these dolls were completely identical except for the skin and hair color. One doll was white with yellow hair, while the other was brown with black hair. The child was then asked questions inquiring…

Yes, I'm aware of it. And I think it backs up what I mentioned - the Clark experiment was made with young children attending schools. That's way past the time when they've had time to soak up the attitudes around them. How does the experiment work with 1-year (or 2, up to maybe three year) old children? That's where my anecdotal experience comes from: they don't care.

But I once heard a five year old boy complaining "I don't want to have to see naked people!" or some such thing. But he was from a country where that (nudeness) is made an issue. From other countries children of that age don't even notice or care. In other words, the complainer learned that from someone. That episode really stuck with me because I had never in my life heard a child opiniate about that before.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#162

Post by zlakb » Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:47 PM UTC

Tor3 wrote: post #158

hh3k0 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is revolting how terribly arrogant your comment is, really. They don't have a "wrong way of looking at things" simply because it is not your way. And your way is by no means the way.

I should maybe add 'in my opinion'. But in truth, I really believe it's wrong. It does not lead to anything positive, quite the contrary. And I've never seen a community become worse by moving into a more modern, open view on diversity and acceptance. And to focus: I really, truly mean that the idea that what "makes" you (and that's what I was commenting on) is your ancestors, is just wrong. Genetic chain? Well, so w…

It leads to something positive to them, it seems.

"more modern, open view on diversity and acceptance" is not positive by itself. Unless you're looking from the point of view of those entering the country, which are people that nationals don't have to care about.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#163

Post by imetatroll » Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

cthalupa wrote: post #61

duxup wrote: post #24

It will be interesting to see how Japan deals with it culturally. From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always clear that they were very much outsiders.

>From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always clear that they were very much outsiders. I spend a fair amount of time in Tokyo for work, and I'd say this is accurate. My 日本語 is far from fluent, but it's frequently better than the English being spoken by random people on the street... yet it will take a good 20-30 seconds of me replying in Japanese before they'll switch away…

To each their own I guess. I often find that Japanese prefer to speak to me in Japanese and in fact are relieved to know that I can communicate in Japanese. I have never once experienced this attitude that you are describing and I've lived here for many years.

I have only ever felt welcome. And I frequently meet foreigners with a chip on their shoulder describing how we will always be "outsiders". I find it rather odd to be honest.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#164

Post by coldtea » Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:51 PM UTC

skohan wrote: post #134

coldtea wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could create the most amazing service in the world. And it’s still inferior to a Japanese business on the grounds that it’s not owned by the Japanese. So like US people were proud for their "Made in America" stamps?

There might be a tiny group of Americans for whom something being "Made in America" would significantly impact their product decisions, but in most cases I think price and quality are the main decision making factors.

Today, perhaps. Back in the 70s/80s it used to be a source of pride (plus sneer at Japanese cars, or complaints about how the Japanese ripped off US products, etc).

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#165

Post by chasely » Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

siruncledrew wrote: post #91

Fun fact: Brazil has the largest Japanese diaspora in the world (larger than US): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_diaspora TIL after wondering why Brazil was one of the prominent contributors of foreign workers in Japan.

There's an interesting history of the Japanese diaspora in Brazil and Peru [0, 1]. Essentially Brazil was looking to "whiten" its country at the same time that Japan was facing economic crises, jumpstarting the immigration.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilians 1: http://isaacmeyer.net/2017/08/episode-207-across-the-sea-par...

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#166

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, May 23, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

wcunning wrote: post #58

rectang wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in San Diego, 20 miles from the Mexican border. If you want to speak Spanish in Chula Vista or other immigrant enclaves, you'll find plenty of people who speak it. However, the number of second generation immigrants who speak Spanish exclusively is as far as I can tell, negligible. There are just too many benefits to assimilating. This isn't Quebec.

Speaking in support of the gp's point: Dearborn's community of Middle Easterners (more than just Muslims, also heavily Chaldean) speaks an awful lot of Arabic and not so much English. Similarly, the Chinese community in Ann Arbor is very insular and sticks heavily to Chinese over English. This is not a normative statement to say that this is bad, but in this region there are immigrant groups that aren't assimilating…

Give it time. How many Polish only speakers do you see in Hamtramck in spite of the large Polish-descended population there?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#167

Post by lmm » Thu, May 23, 2019, 1:29 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #38

duality wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass migration seems to be for economic benefits. A handful of people may immigrate out of appreciation of their new host culture, but millions or tens of millions doing so? Seems unlikely to me. They'll go to earn more money.

It sounds like Japan, with its own unique culture and governance distinct from Western nations, is not pursuing a course of mass migration but something more regulated and careful.

They were, for a while. Isn't the point of this article that they're moving to a much more Western-style policy? Japan was a unique culture, but already feels a lot less so than it used to be.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#168

Post by GoblinSlayer » Thu, May 23, 2019, 1:29 PM UTC

slang800 wrote: post #35

whytaka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that matter to you? I don't know if I'll have children and if I do, it'll certainly be It's often said that people used to have a lot of kids in order to insure against child mortality. I understand financial stress et al may be one reason for the lower reproduction rate but less kids can also be a sign of success.

If successful people are having fewer kids than unsuccessful people then haven't we created a dysgenic system?

You can't increase success by breeding successful people, because success is created from loss, eventually they add up to zero.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#169

Post by glandium » Thu, May 23, 2019, 1:30 PM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #121

coldtea wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not very difficult if you've lived in either place... (And they don't exactly have a mutual love for each other)

I am a Korean (lived in Korea for >30 years) and I think it is difficult...

It's both difficult and not. It depends on the persons. There are many Koreans that are easily identifiable as Korean, and many Japanese easily identifiable as Japanese. And there are some that are hard to tell apart.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#170

Post by Tor3 » Thu, May 23, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

zlakb wrote: post #162

Tor3 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should maybe add 'in my opinion'. But in truth, I really believe it's wrong. It does not lead to anything positive, quite the contrary. And I've never seen a community become worse by moving into a more modern, open view on diversity and acceptance. And to focus: I really, truly mean that the idea that what "makes" you (and that's what I was commenting on) is your ancestors, is just wrong. Genetic chain? Well, so w…

It leads to something positive to them, it seems. "more modern, open view on diversity and acceptance" is not positive by itself. Unless you're looking from the point of view of those entering the country, which are people that nationals don't have to care about.

I'm actually taking the point of view from the nationals, as you call it. With people coming from other places on earth the area I'm currently living in became a good place to live. I got the nicest next-door neighbours it's possible to imagine, for example. My wife cried when they moved to another place (to get more space). The city center is also a vastly more dynamic and interesting place to be than it used to be back when everything was monotone. Back when the only non-native language you could hear was a little bit of English, and the occasional tourists from nearby countries. Now there are more than a hundred languages spoken here. It works fantastically well, but it demands that you avoid creating ghettos for immigrants, as has been the unfortunate expericence of some cities elsewhere in Europe.