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VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

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Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#161

Post by GordonS »

antpls wrote: post #157
jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

Are the telemetry data made public? If it's not, then it could be manipulated to justify arbitrary decisions from MS

Why would they make arbitrary decisions that run contrary to what the telemetry data shows? That just doesn't make sense.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#162

Post by alkonaut »

userbinator wrote: post #117

There's already a comment here, and I've also personally experienced just from talking with others offline, that a lot of people don't even know VSCode had telemetry, despite it mentioned several times in the product itself and its documentation. They (and remember, these people are supposedly developers ) either ignored it, or just didn't read the docs. I guess a big WARNING banner might scare users away, but it's s…

Telemetry is all about how it’s presented to the user. It should simply be presented at install/first start and users should be shown the checkbox (it shouldn’t be hidden away in settings) and asked nicely to leave it on in order to improve the product. Checked by default is a hot topic but I think it is OK so long as it’s presented clearly to the user.

I mean obviously I wouldn’t like any of the information I handle to be sent somewhere, but I also don’t mind statistics about that info (number of files, file sizes, feature use count) to be sent to Microsoft. If I found out that file contents was transmitted then obviously I’d be outraged - but I’m rational and assume Microsoft is too.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#163

Post by jhall1468 »

dschuetz wrote: post #159
jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

Wait a minute, there is tracking involved in a code editor? No, it's not in anyone's best interest. It can't be. Any info collected with tracking could also be used for other, malign purposes, covertly and illegally. I understand your perspective, I wish it was true as a fact. But it isn't. What I've learned in the recent years - don't trust anything that tracks and collects data unless it's your own thing.

There's a pretty wide area between a skeptic and a conspiracy theorist, but this kind of mentality certainly leans toward the latter. Logic dictates it's vastly more likely the data collected is to improve the editor, than a multi-national multi-billion dollar company collecting data to use it illegally.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#164

Post by dschuetz »

jhall1468 wrote: post #163
dschuetz wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute, there is tracking involved in a code editor? No, it's not in anyone's best interest. It can't be. Any info collected with tracking could also be used for other, malign purposes, covertly and illegally. I understand your perspective, I wish it was true as a fact. But it isn't. What I've learned in the recent years - don't trust anything that tracks and collects data unless it's your own thing.

There's a pretty wide area between a skeptic and a conspiracy theorist, but this kind of mentality certainly leans toward the latter. Logic dictates it's vastly more likely the data collected is to improve the editor, than a multi-national multi-billion dollar company collecting data to use it illegally.

No, it's an issue of trust. I wasn't implying that Microsoft does such things. Such things could happen without them even knowing about it. With security in mind I just can't take the risk myself or expose my clients to such risks. VSCode is obviously a consumer product, not an enterprise solution, so I advise my clients to use more trustworthy software, without built-in tracking capability.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#165

Post by tus87 »

jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

Said by no police state ever. This comment is straight out of 1984.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#166

Post by alkonaut »

taneq wrote: post #70
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chris Dias offers up a suggestion for how to investigate further here: https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/60#issuecomment-1... But, speaking as a developer of an open source software product that includes telemetry[1], I expect they're tracking really basic stuff, like: DAU, MAU, edited file types, project size, crash reports, etc. Basically, information that helps to internally justify the continued existenc…

> I expect they're tracking really basic stuff [...] information that helps to internally justify the continued existence of the project, and data that lets them better prioritize resources on the project. This is my big issue with almost all analytics setups. Sure, you expect that they're probably tracking stuff like that, which is perfectly reasonable and benefits everyone. But when you look at the privacy policy i…

I wouldn’t (unfortunately) ever bother with what terms say. They are written by a legal person who worries about future legal issues.

This is basically down to the reputation of the vendor and what information I can guess they gather based on what sort of outrage they would face if they cross a line.

There are two messages here:

1. Legal. Basically a catch all that says they might sample your blood in the future

2. Non-legal e.g developers. Says they gather harmless statistics.

Obviously #1 smells. But that’s how US corporate legal culture works. The judgement I have to do is whether the vendor can be trusted to do only what they say in message #2. I wouldn’t trust all companies in this respect, especially not those that trade in information like Facebook, but I do give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#167

Post by jhall1468 »

kumarvvr wrote: post #129
ChuckMcM wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they have you install a binary that you can't inspect the source to or build on your own? I'm confused.

It clearly states in the article that though VSC is open source and you can build it from source, there are opaque components that are part of the VSC installer. The article claims that the installer installs telemetry systems, though they can be opted out of. However, the project owners do not trust Microsoft to honor the 'opt-out' part if not now then in the future. So they have created a fork of the project.

Why in the hell would anyone trust them?

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#168

Post by naikrovek »

z3t4 wrote: post #16
jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

It maybe starts with simple statistics. But then you want to know what features the user use, then you want to know what other programs they have installed. Then you want to know what the users search for on the web. etc. It's a slippery slope.

Every time I hear the phrase "it's a slippery slope" uttered by someone arguing against something, I am immediately suspicious of the argument that person is making.

There really isn't such a thing, in the way you've used that phrase.

Capturing telemetry on how I use a tool from within that tool is perfectly fine, to me. Collecting telemetry on my search history in the browser by that same tool isn't. THERE ARE NO INTERIM STEPS that makes the second of those ok. There is no slope. If there is, it isn't slippery. There is a series of discreet decisions and at some point (which is different for everyone) a line is crossed. There was no slope or slip that brought you there, only a series of mostly unrelated decisions.

To think that Microsoft's long-term goal is to install a keystroke logger via a multi-decade and multi-phase plan that begins with application usage telemetry in a free developer tool thanks to "a slippery slope" is just simply not realistic.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#170

Post by naikrovek »

ComodoHacker wrote: post #139
nurettin wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the crucial difference between a popup saying "would you like to opt in?" and popup saying "would you like to opt out?"

Opt-in telemetry likely won't serve it's purpose. Very few users change the defaults. To the point where you don't get enough data for useful insights.

That is exactly right. Almost no one would turn it on if it were off by defauly, which makes data collected by those few users strongly biased against general users and their usage patterns. (Meaning that the data you do collect will be useless.)

This is literally the only reason that telemetry is almost always on by default. There is no illuminati secretly buying developers to learn your secrets via application telemetry, and it's laughable to think that's the case, in my mind.

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