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VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

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Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#151

Post by Vinnl »

jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

One of the more flabbergasting comments I've seen is when Mozilla removed ALSA support from Firefox because nobody stepped up to maintain it, and the metrics showed that it wasn't widely used. There were people complaining about it being removed, and stating that the people who did use it were more likely to have turned off tracking, and thus did not show up.

I mean, sure, it might be the case that there were indeed tens of thousands of ALSA users with tracking turned off, but... From my perspective, it seems more likely that it was just a handful, and really there's no way to tell the difference. If you turn off telemetry, and be aware of and accept the downsides.

I trust Mozilla, so my telemetry is on, but for many other applications, I often opt to turn off tracking - with the understanding that it's harder for them to tell what my needs are.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#152

Post by canofbars »

nurettin wrote: post #131
prepend wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tracking should always be opt-in, not opt-out. I base this on expected user preference and trying to optimize for user happiness and functionality. I don’t think this is as true for non-OSS software where the purpose is likely more toward revenue generation than community and user functionality.

What is the crucial difference between a popup saying "would you like to opt in?" and popup saying "would you like to opt out?"

Opt out is when the tracking is on by default and the user has to take action to stop it. Opt in is off by default and action must be taken to enable it. What happens before the popup decides which one it is. If the user closes or ignores the message about tracking there should be none and there should have been none before the popup.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#153

Post by mmgutz »

jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

Does anybody else get the sarcasm?

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#155

Post by nindalf »

prepend wrote: post #128
chipperyman573 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it? When I opened VS Code on a new computer for the first time today, a message popped up with step by step instructions to opt out

Tracking should always be opt-in, not opt-out. I base this on expected user preference and trying to optimize for user happiness and functionality. I don’t think this is as true for non-OSS software where the purpose is likely more toward revenue generation than community and user functionality.

First, please let's draw a distinction between different kinds of tracking. We're smart enough to appreciate the naunces here. Some information is more valuable than others.

* How many times you clicked Edit -> Paste vs Ctrl/Cmd + V. This is not personal information. It cannot be used in any way to identify you.

* Your location/medical information. Guard this with your life if you must. Share it with literally no one. If it's uploaded somewhere, delete it asap.

All our information falls on a spectrum between these two extremes. Let's please acknowledge that not all information is super sensitive, that it's ok to share information like the paste example.

Second, this information can be useful, and can change the direction of the products we're building. For example, the Office team wanted to re-design the old menu bar interface to surface the features people were using the most. You know what people used the menu bar for the most? EDIT -> PASTE. You'd think everyone knows about Ctrl + V, but apparently not. The vast majority of the world used to click Edit, then click Paste. Knowing that users were doing this allowed the interface to be moulded to suit the needs of the silent, non shortcut using majority instead of HN power users - https://imgur.com/a/WLm4UJd.

Third, if you acknowledge that this information is useful, then it follows that it's only useful when it's opt-out. If it's opt-in and only 0.01% of your users opt-in, you can't make any reasonable conclusion from the data because it wouldn't be representative. If you tried to convince folks that no one uses keyboard shortcuts to paste based on this tiny data set, they'd laugh you out of the room. Collecting opt-in data in this case is almost useless.

Fourth, products that collect this info become better. If you're ok with webapps collecting this but not native apps (like VS Code), then the consequence might be that web apps end up being much better than native apps. Whether you prefer that or not is moot, but personally I like having options. Let's not force native app makers to stop collecting non-identifying information when the downside is minimal/non-existent.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#156

Post by ru999gol »

I would suspect anyone who cared about things like that, would never even considered using a microsoft or apple product to begin with. Can I just point out how hilariously predictable the opinions on HN are? The comments here defending Microsoft spyware are hilarious.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#157

Post by antpls »

jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

Are the telemetry data made public? If it's not, then it could be manipulated to justify arbitrary decisions from MS

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#158

Post by ru999gol »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #98

I do not trust Facebook with my personal data on their site, but I would absolutely trust them to turn off arbitrary telemetry data if in fact it said it was 'off'. I just don't think there's a big evil conflict of interest or whatever for this stuff to get slippery. No yet anyhow.

> Facebook [...] I would absolutely trust them

there is no hope for you then I suppose

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#159

Post by dschuetz »

jameskraus wrote: post #7

I suspect the tracking in VSCode is mainly used to improve the product. It's probably in my best interest, and the interest of the community as a whole to leave tracking on. I mean, I get it, HN is usually a more skeptical and security-focused crowd. At the same time, it's likely MS will just take that information and tailor their bugfixes and features to the things I need most, so by all means I want them to have it…

Wait a minute, there is tracking involved in a code editor? No, it's not in anyone's best interest. It can't be. Any info collected with tracking could also be used for other, malign purposes, covertly and illegally. I understand your perspective, I wish it was true as a fact. But it isn't. What I've learned in the recent years - don't trust anything that tracks and collects data unless it's your own thing.

Re: VSCodium – An Open Source Visual Studio Code Without Trackers

#160

Post by m0zg »

Meh. I just set the environment variable in my dotfiles which opts me out of telemetry. I can't recall a case where MS would outright lie about stuff like this. I.e. with Win 10 they flat out tell you you can't disable all telemetry, and in the case of VSCode they're targeting a real hard-ass demographic, so I trust them to not track me when I told them not to. I also don't use VSCode very often, though.
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