Swedes turn against cashlessness • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#161

Post by 1001101 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #114

pilsetnieks wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash isn't getting any more valuable, either. What are you suggesting? Hoarding gold bars?

The ECB interest rates have already been negative since 2014. I'm pretty sure that if there was no risk of a bank run, banks would follow by also setting their interest rates to be negative.

ECB also banned 500 euro notes, which may also be another leading indicator. Sweden's housing market is in a downturn right now. If it starts looking like the early 90s, deeper negative rates might seem attractive (they are currently at -0.5% in SE).

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#162

Post by mrmekon » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

imartin2k wrote: post #153

I live in Sweden. No one I know uses cash. I haven't had the need for nor used cash for years. Even if headlines often are overblown, this feels particularly misleading, as it implies that there would be some bigger trend. Considering that many people only read headlines, I'd support a movement for becoming more accurate even with headlines. "In Sweden, some worry about the cashless society" would be way more apt.

The second sentence corrects the sensational headline: "the small but growing number of Swedes anxious about their country’s rush to embrace a cash-free society."

It must be very small. The only person I've ever heard complain about it is... myself. Not for the reasons this article gives, though. I'm more upset about Visa and Mastercard skimming 1% of profit off of the entire country's retail commerce. Maybe if they weren't simultaneously terrible, but they also have unimaginably bad fraud detection, and push their own fraud problems onto local businesses.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#163

Post by EADGBE » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #135

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the automated checkouts I've seen in my country, there's no possibility to pay by cash. You have to pay by card in order to use the self-checkout.

> On the automated checkouts I've seen in my country, there's no possibility to pay by cash. You have to pay by card in order to use the self-checkout. And in stores that don't accept credit cards you have to pay cash. What does that have to do with anything? Machines that can rapidly make change for cash purchases are still a thing that exist. Stores whose customers prefer them can install them -- and then not have…

They just pay a percentage to the change maker instead...

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#164

Post by iamatworknow » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

EarthMephit wrote: post #28

optimusrex wrote: post #2

As an American, now living in Europe I cannot understand the pushback against cashless systems. In Germany almost every cafe, restaurant, or bar requires you pay with cash. I understand there is a slight charge to the vendor when charging to a credit or bank card, but the amount of time and energy saved by having "exact change" every transaction should increase productivity enough to cover any costs.

Smaller resturants prefer cash, because it allows them to evade taxes by underquoting their profits. The same reason that builders quote less for "cash only" prices This is one of the main reasons that governments are pushing for cashless systems, because there is less evetax evasion and increased revenue

Along those same lines if I'm going out to eat somewhere that accepts credit cards I will almost always pay the bill with the card and tip the server in cash. They can just pocket the cash and as far as the restaurant knows they didn't receive a tip (that would otherwise be taxed).

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#165

Post by stordoff » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #118

jstanley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's de facto the same in most shops. If you pick up some goods and walk out of the shop leaving some cash on the counter... what recourse do they have? OK, the shop might not be happy about it, but you owe them the value of goods, and you've paid them in legal tender to the correct amount.

In England that's theft. This is clear and unambiguous. See for example thean who took cash from his company safe, and replaced the same value a week later, but who was convicted of theft because the notes were different. See R v Velyumi here: https://www.lawteacher.net/cases/theft-cases.php

Dishonestly would be a key factor there. If you believe you have the legal right to do that, or you believe that the owner of the goods would have consented, then you have not acted dishonestly, and there is no theft. If you do so to as you believe that the owner would not accept cash, you have acted dishonestly and thus there is a theft.[1]

Note that Velumyl was an appeal on the grounds that the defendant did not intend to permanently deprive, thus the money being different was relevant as he permanently deprived the owner of that specific property. Had the defendant contented there was no dishonestly -- that he intended to return equivalent funds and believed that the company would consent -- the decision may well have been different.

[1] Theft Act 1968 s.2(1) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/2

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#166

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

EADGBE wrote: post #163

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the automated checkouts I've seen in my country, there's no possibility to pay by cash. You have to pay by card in order to use the self-checkout. And in stores that don't accept credit cards you have to pay cash. What does that have to do with anything? Machines that can rapidly make change for cash purchases are still a thing that exist. Stores whose customers prefer them can install them -- and then not have…

They just pay a percentage to the change maker instead...

What change maker? The store owns the machine, which net saves them money because then they don't need as many cashiers.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#167

Post by logfromblammo » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #64

mnw21cam wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that in the UK, legal tender has a very narrow definition - it applies only to paying a debt at a court. It doesn't apply to your local shops. This is a common misconception.

But it's de facto the same in most shops. If you pick up some goods and walk out of the shop leaving some cash on the counter... what recourse do they have? OK, the shop might not be happy about it, but you owe them the value of goods, and you've paid them in legal tender to the correct amount.

If the shop allows you to run up a tab, you can pay it off with legal tender. If the shop does not extend credit to you, you may not take the goods unless you have something the owner is willing to accept in trade. If the owner demands only gold or silver, you cannot legally pay with a bank note.

If you leave bank notes of sufficient value and run out, they are very unlikely to attempt to prosecute you, but they could, both for the theft and the nuisance of leaving your property lying around in their store. And the case would probably be resolved on appeal somewhere, with one judge arguing that the state has an inherent interest in having its primary currency universally accepted by all businesses in its jurisdiction, and another arguing that the state is overreaching when it tells shopkeepers what they must accept as payment.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#168

Post by herbst » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:08 PM UTC

QasimK wrote: post #139

brownbat wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I requested a contactless card in the US, it took some pleading, but it was the greatest decision. About half the places I shop support Apple and Google pay, and those systems always seem to take the card, but it's far faster than my phone or watch. Way faster than chip, of course. No idea why it didn't take off here, contactless cards have been the best experience for me by a mile. Maybe people have had better luck…

Contactless cards aren’t really any faster than Apple Pay secured by your fingerprint, and in fact are the same speed if you prepare your iPhone - supposing your phone is at least as accessible as your contactless card. I’ve never used the Apple Watch for this.

My personal issue is that I cant and won't accept that my wallet suddenly needs battery to work in a device that barely holds 2 days.

In fact I still don't understand how people think this is a good idea to begin with.

As main method that is. I also use BitPay on my phone every once in a while

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#169

Post by mistermann » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

imartin2k wrote: post #153

I live in Sweden. No one I know uses cash. I haven't had the need for nor used cash for years. Even if headlines often are overblown, this feels particularly misleading, as it implies that there would be some bigger trend. Considering that many people only read headlines, I'd support a movement for becoming more accurate even with headlines. "In Sweden, some worry about the cashless society" would be way more apt.

People must still use cash to buy drugs, sex, and that sort of thing no?

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#170

Post by hashmush » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

This is confusing. I thought it was just a couple of friends and I that thought that cashless is a horrible idea. Seems like we at least have older people on our side.

> Yet Sweden is divided into two camps: the first says "we love the new technology", while the other just can’t be bothered, Skarec says.

Also, it is scary that people think like this. Everyone is in such a rush to digitize everything and implement new tech that we don't think about the consequences of our actions. E.g the scandal from last year where Transportstyrelsen (Swedish Transport Agency) outsourced work to a company in the Czech Republic and gave people without security clearance access to the database. That included access to details concerning military vehicles and two different police registers.