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Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

craigslist.org

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Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#161

Post by golemotron »

rpearl wrote: post #72
quotemstr wrote: post #68

I am fucking sick and fucking tired of people interfering with the free choice of individuals in any effort to "fix" society and "help" people. Lawmakers and advocates, have some epistemic humility and acknowledge that your own perspective may be mistaken. Not everything is oppression. Not every activity is injustice. Sometimes, people just fucking disagree.

The goal of the legislation in question is specifically to help individuals that have been coerced, against their free will, into sex trafficking. It is not about voluntary interactions between consenting adults. The legislation might be misguided or ineffective--I haven't really looked into it--but it very definitely isn't about restricting the free choice of individuals.

> The goal of the legislation in question is specifically to help individuals that have been coerced, against their free will

The key is in the definition of coercion. Was violence threatened? Is a person physically restrained? If so, that's coercion. When the law starts to deal with "psychological coercion" it denies agency to adults.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#163

Post by Buge »

valuearb wrote: post #75
rpearl wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of the legislation in question is specifically to help individuals that have been coerced, against their free will, into sex trafficking. It is not about voluntary interactions between consenting adults. The legislation might be misguided or ineffective--I haven't really looked into it--but it very definitely isn't about restricting the free choice of individuals.

It’s completely limiting free choice and voluntary interactions between consenting adults. A huge personals section just got shut down. Unless you think 100% of personal ads are coerced sex trafficking, which would be rather crazy opinion. If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not drive it farther underground.

rpearl never claimed that it wasn't limiting free choice. rpearl claimed the intention wasn't to limit free choice.

Intent and actual outcome are two completely different things.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#164

Post by flukus »

abritinthebay wrote: post #83
flamedoge wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

decentralized network can't come soon enough. I foresee YC, Reddit, Youtube, FB, and alike get supplanted by technology that has no ownership.

Every single decentralized version of those sites has died a death due to a) being pretty awful b) attracting completely terrible users as it’s base c) terrible user experience. What do you see changing?

> What do you see changing?

The amount of people being removed from mainstream sites and looking for alternatives. At the very least these growing numbers will solve b and may have a significant impact on a and c as well.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#165

Post by Zamicol »

DannyBee wrote: post #44

This is not surprising, but sad. Years ago, i was dragged (i was the only engineer in the local office) into a whitehouse (or maybe it was state department, i can't remember) sponsored working group on online sex trafficking. The non-profits dedicated to fighting this, while seemingly well-intentioned, were completely and totally unwilling to see any other perspective or try to find shared ground. It was scorched ear…

What non-profits?

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#166

Post by ctack »

halflings wrote: post #135
sersi wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is key. I strongly believe that legalization is the only answer to the problem. Driving things underground is only going to cause more issues and abuse to the sex workers. It's kind of ironic when in France, for example, a law gets passed criminalizing the customers while the sex workers go in the street to protest that law saying that it will create more abuse (and one year after, they were right). Trying to st…

> This is key. I strongly believe that legalization is the only answer to the problem. Why do we have to "believe"? There are many examples to learn from, to see what works and what doesn't. For example, this study [0]. "This paper suggests it’s the latter. Using trafficking data from 150 countries, the authors find that "countries where prostitution is legal experience a larger reported incidence of human traffickin…

Your post came as a surprise. It seems like they've been under-regulated. http://www.dw.com/en/germany-introduces-unpopular-prostituti...

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#167

Post by downandout »

anigbrowl wrote: post #134
downandout wrote: post #100

I just read the text of this bill. The way it reads, the entire online dating industry should be closing its doors...tonight. CEOs of these companies face penalties of up to 25 years in prison. Why were there not massive protests over this? I had never heard of this bill before today.

Nobody listens to sex workers.

Possibly, but this is so broadly written that it reaches far beyond sex workers to the executives of massive enterprises - who usually are listened to. It essentially says that if you own any website and don't do enough to prevent prostitution from occurring through it, you go to prison for 10 years if there were 1-4 prostitutes on the site, and 25 years if there were 5 or more prostitutes on the site. Additionally, people "injured" by the offense can seek civil damages and attorneys fees. That presumably includes the sex workers themselves, if they claim they were forced to be on there by someone else.

Executives at Tinder, POF, Match.com, etc. should be shaking in their boots right now. Even Facebook and other social networks could have civil and criminal exposure under this law.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#168

Post by threatofrain »

SeeDave wrote: post #117
DannyBee wrote: post #44

This is not surprising, but sad. Years ago, i was dragged (i was the only engineer in the local office) into a whitehouse (or maybe it was state department, i can't remember) sponsored working group on online sex trafficking. The non-profits dedicated to fighting this, while seemingly well-intentioned, were completely and totally unwilling to see any other perspective or try to find shared ground. It was scorched ear…

In defense of the "scorched earth approach or nothing" folks: from my perspective... it's a completely and totally human response to faceless, blameless, unapproachable (from their perspective) perpetrators and facilitators of systematic abuse and exploitation of innocent and vulnerable people. If you've ever felt frustrated at an IVR system for routine tasks such as banking, restaurant reservations, canceling a gym…

But if people are content to swat away a problem until they can't see it anymore, despite that the ignored causes continues to generate more misery, then it's hard to be sympathetic to that defensible position. Especially since a lot of people just lost access to romantic venues because a minority of users make a living through sex.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#169

Post by intended »

zeth___ wrote: post #154
halflings wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is key. I strongly believe that legalization is the only answer to the problem. Why do we have to "believe"? There are many examples to learn from, to see what works and what doesn't. For example, this study [0]. "This paper suggests it’s the latter. Using trafficking data from 150 countries, the authors find that "countries where prostitution is legal experience a larger reported incidence of human traffickin…

Sweden has more rapes per capita than any country outside of sub-saharan Africa. Whatever system they have they can keep.

I recall this is Because their definition is far broader - if it was applied to other countries the number of rapes would increase

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#170

Post by pmoriarty »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #139
pmoriarty wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What is a "traditional" way of meeting someone? Through your parents?" Through friends, hobbies, volunteering, bars, clubs, parties, and various other forms of group entertainment like concerts, plays, etc. Pretty much anywhere people meet face to face counts.

> Pretty much anywhere people meet face to face counts. But that's the problem, right? People used to do their banking in a bank, get their books in a library, their toothpaste in a drug store, their music in a record store, etc. Now they do all of that online without leaving home. So they need to meet people online too.

"they need to meet people online too"

You don't need to convince me. I see the value of online dating.

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