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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#161

Post by ringaroundthetx »

roel_v wrote: post #114
ringaroundthetx wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sudbury and Montessori schools offer a model that seems to encourage students to learn at their own pace Provides a positive feedback loop that seemed to have positive results in the real world as well

My children are in a Montessori school. There is no evidence that children from most 'alternative' teaching systems do better or worse than those in 'regular' schools. My children like the school and it's conveniently located, so we have no intention of changing; but it's not the teaching system that makes or breaks a student (well, the more loony systems like Steiner schools have documented worse outcomes than other…

I was going to write that, there's a few books on Sudbury schools too

It seems like adjustment to society has nothing to do with 15 years of school because none of it matters, and just keeping people curious and off the streets has the most utility.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#162

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #19
zachrose wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are five electricians in town, they each make $40/hour. They have a hard time finding qualified apprentices. After education, there are 7 electricians. The same 5 electricians still make $40/hour, but the two new electricians make $25/hour. Turns out there's a previously unserved market for a cheaper and less experienced electrician.

Exactly this. There is a lot of unmet demand in trade labor in even "low rent" places like Las Vegas.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted.

There's a lot of demand for the blue collar equivalent of CRUD apps that isn't met because there are no "cheap" blue collar professionals around.

A lot of people would be willing to pay a plumber to fix their sink, an electrician to replace a light fixture with a ceiling fan or a welder to build hand railings if there were more options for those services that fell between "licensed, insured and too expensive for you" and "questionable quality, affordable prices and nowhere to be found it it breaks"

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#163

Post by Boothroid »

SapphireSun wrote: post #85
SapphireSun wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've arrived at the unthinkable thought. Why indeed, in a very rich country, do any poor people at all exist? Why is this crime not remedied immediately? The only possible explanation in a democratic society, is that somehow the upper classes have rigged the system via political machinations, voter suppression, dividing the intermediate classes against each other, and propaganda. It's a sobering thought. We might a…

You're downvoting me, and that's natural. I assume the bulk of vocal HNers are ancap libertarians (possibly some of you aligning with the Dark Enlightenment). However, you should take what I said more seriously. It represents a point of view with which you've perhaps had little contact, but is held by a significant (possibly even growing) portion of the population. It is diametrically opposed to many of the precepts…

Raising the idea that immigration might have negative effects is pretty much taboo here on HN.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#164

Post by jstewartmobile »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #120
jstewartmobile wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a tangent. The source is unreliable. If I must address the article, it is the same kind of ham-handed shilling I have come to expect from them. "Researchers" say this. "Researchers" say that. Then at the very bottom, regard: " Note: Working papers have not been peer-reviewed or been subject to review by the NBER Board of Directors that accompanies official NBER publications. " Scam the kids into college! Wa…

> It is not a tangent. The source is unreliable. The source is the National Bureau of Economic Research. NBER is not unreliable. > "Researchers" say this. "Researchers" say that. Scientists often disagree with each other or with previous scientists as more data and tools become available. I'm not sure why that makes you so angry? > "Note: Working papers have not been peer-reviewed or been subject to review by the NBE…

Where did I criticize the paper? I was criticizing how CNBC used it to fulfill the agenda of whichever PR firm they happen to be shilling for at the moment.

I'm sure the researchers did enumerate more things than the CNBC article, since the article said very little.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#165

Post by Double_a_92 »

romanovcode wrote: post #138
coredog64 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Degree requirements are the last bastion of socially acceptable racism.

Pretty sure you would not want your doctor to be w/o a proper degree. This "racism" as you call it is perfectly applicable to some professions.

What about a black doctor? You'd be racist if you denied...

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#166

Post by alistairSH »

MarkMc wrote: post #148
ransom1538 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed+. This is anecdotal, but I tried recently to get roof repairs made in CA for a rental home I own. I called 20+ roofers none of whom are taking new projects. I was able to get one quote from a friend of friend for over $1k for about 4 hours of work -- but he made no commitment. Plumbers, AC guys, roofers are in incredible demand in CA - need an electrician? forget it. These guys all own their own companies, dri…

That sounds odd. Why don't roofers increase their fees until supply matches demand?

Depending on circumstance, they may also be tied to whatever home insurers deem proper for a roof. I'd guess roughly a third of my peers have had their roofs replaced and paid for by their home insurance (storm damage - tree limbs, hail, etc).

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#167

Post by dionidium »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #123
roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

One thing that has really opened my mind on this is Amazon Home Services. Basically, if you're incorporated, insured, and can provide a few references proving you do decent work, Amazon will shovel business your way. And you can limit the services you provide. For example, one of the services you can buy on Amazon Home Services is "Door knob replacement." This is a VERY low level skill that requires only the most bas…

What's amazing to me is that there are people who don't feel like they're capable of changing their own doorknob.

(I get it; there are some people who would rather just pay, but surely some of these people just don't feel like they could manage this task. That's wild.)

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#168

Post by jstewartmobile »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #108
jstewartmobile wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a theoretical sense... I guess. In a practical sense with real-life electricians, not so much. Unlike college, becoming an apprentice electrician isn't terribly costly or time consuming. People climb that mountain all the time on their own dime. The problem is that they run back down once they see the view. Electrical work is hard, stressful, and sometimes dangerous. Jam a bunch of innocent kids through trade scho…

You still have to train those "kids", trade school should not just be books, but at least 50% practical work.

The master electrician's compensation for training the apprentice is the lower wage of the apprentice.

Most MEs I know bill everything out between $90 and $130 per hour during normal business hours. Apprentice is usually getting around $35 per hour. Apprentice has to work for years to become a master.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#169

Post by sjg007 »

roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

The one issue with home appliances is that they are becoming disposable and cheap enough to just throw away and buy if it breaks. Although the higher end stuff still breaks down and may justify a repair cost but a $300 dishwasher does not. Even washer and dryers are now very close to being disposable. I would have hoped it had gone the other way with today's products being super reliable due to improved manufacturing and technology but we got cheap and fancy useless features vs cheap and reliable.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#170

Post by sjg007 »

ransom1538 wrote: post #131
roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

Agreed+. This is anecdotal, but I tried recently to get roof repairs made in CA for a rental home I own. I called 20+ roofers none of whom are taking new projects. I was able to get one quote from a friend of friend for over $1k for about 4 hours of work -- but he made no commitment. Plumbers, AC guys, roofers are in incredible demand in CA - need an electrician? forget it. These guys all own their own companies, dri…

It's the same everywhere.. HVAC guy in a rural area near me cleared $400k a year. Only know about it because he had some tax issues so it got written up in the paper.

The best way is to go through your insurance company if you can. They have contractors who have to take jobs. This leads to another idea that a good business might be selling a remodeling membership plan where you get access to contractors.

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