Saw this happen a few times. One instance was when NCR (National Cash Register) headquartered in Dayton, OH decided to move to Georgia because it had gotten $60M worth (in 2009 dollars) of tax breaks and other incentives there. It followed the incentives sure, so from that point can't blame it, but it had cost Dayton, an already struggling city, even more pain. Another motive behind forced moves is to shed experience…
Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
161–170 of 242 posts
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they can't even start families? You say that like it's a bad thing. Humanity is a plague, we breed uncontrolled and our population keeps growing and growing. There is no need for anyone to start a family, there is no shortage of humans.
Would the people who down-vote care to explain why they support unbounded population growth ? That would be great.
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
Iowa is "giving money". If there is a greater than 0% chance Apple would have built on that site anyways, then Iowa is directly losing that money. And it seems based on the local advantages of the Iowa location there was a non-zero (and potentially high) chance Apple would have picked the site anyways. And even if Iowa isn't "giving money", somebody is. Maybe without the Iowa deal, Apple would have located in Kansas…
> If there is a greater than 0% chance Apple would have built on that site anyways, then Iowa is directly losing that money. That doesn't make sense. Perhaps you meant to say if there's 100% chance Apple would have built there anyway?
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#164> We were highly skeptical of this deal when it was announced Aug. 24. In the fullness of time, we’ve subjected it to closer scrutiny. And now it looks even worse. Oh great, so you carefully gathered data and put it into some sort of spreadsheet or something? Where's the spreadsheet? Where's the decision tree that shows this is a bad deal for Iowa? Oh, you don't have any of that actual diligence? You started with a c…
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is nothing wrong with states competing with each other. If one state has poor schools then companies won't want to be there because they won't be able to find competent employees. If one state has no government healthcare subsidies then employees there will demand higher wages so they can pay for healthcare. The states that have better schools and more subsidies will have correspondingly higher taxes. The only…
> Pressure to eliminate them is good and the state that best eliminates them wins This is nonsense. By this logic, corporate pressure to eliminate environmental regulations is "good" because they are "ineffective programs". You assume, wrongly, that the benefits of public investment realize themselves within a timeframe that matters to the bottom lines of individual corporations. In reality, markets reward short-term…
Environmental regulations prevent a harm. A dollar value can be attached to the harm, the cost to compensate victims and clean up the damage. If a company is polluting but not providing enough value to compensate for that pollution then they're a parasite and the state does not benefit from avoiding environmental regulations in order to attract them.
In practice not polluting is almost always more cost effective than polluting and then cleaning it up afterwards, so states that have environmental regulations will out compete states that allow pollution and then have taxes high enough to recover the cost of pollution from local companies.
If that wasn't the case then it wouldn't actually be a problem. Suppose someone invented a way of converting CO2 + H2O + sunlight into hydrocarbons that was so efficient it put all the oil companies out of business. Now everyone is still emitting carbon, and increasing carbon would still cause climate change, but recovering the carbon using that process would be more cost effective than alternatives that don't emit carbon to begin with. Which would make doing that a completely reasonable thing to do.
The problem case is when the state is externalizing its costs, e.g. West Virginia burns coal and the pollution spreads to many other states. Those are the cases where national regulations (or international treaties) are necessary. Not because the state is allowing a company to externalize costs, since it has no incentive to do that if the state is the one paying the full cost of that. But instead because the state itself is externalizing costs and that requires some external force to prevent it, equivalent to the need for the state to prevent the company.
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
Competition between governments results in you as product beeing sold for cheap, without rights and recursions against the company and your health beeing cast aside as obsticle. Even the american post-problem lawsuit culture will fail to hold internationals accountable, once the managed to get that part of law as negotiatable into arbitration courts. How somebody can willingly sew on the branch he sits upon- and decl…
It's discouraged to mention people's spelling/grammar on HN, provided the intended meaning is clear, but in this case the mistakes are obscuring your meaning in a way that's likely to bring downvotes. I'm guessing that you are not a native English speaker, or possibly using someone else's phone, so please accept these notes as constructive encouragement. > recursions Probably meant "repercussions" > beeing being > ob…
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#167Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Washington already won me over [partially] due to not having a state income tax and yet having infrastructure comparable to my previous high-tax state, although Seattle is working hard to change that. Just curious- how does Washington get funding without income tax?
I would assume through sales tax & property taxes.
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#169These are property tax abatements. I don't see the big deal. Apple has to pay the property tax equal to the farmland for the next 20 years instead of the much higher tax on the datacenter property. Who cares? Unless someone is arguing the datacenter is going to use a lot of tax funded city services (police? fire? ... ?), Waukee isn't giving Apple anything. On top of that Apple is pledging to give them $100M for vario…
The corporate tax for Delaware is 8.7%. How can that benefit a company in not paying taxes? I am sure there are other benefits in incorporating in Delaware but does not seem like it has any tax benefits per se.
Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals
#170These are property tax abatements. I don't see the big deal. Apple has to pay the property tax equal to the farmland for the next 20 years instead of the much higher tax on the datacenter property. Who cares? Unless someone is arguing the datacenter is going to use a lot of tax funded city services (police? fire? ... ?), Waukee isn't giving Apple anything. On top of that Apple is pledging to give them $100M for vario…
> On top of that Apple is pledging to give them $100M for various things The article points out that the pledge contains the significant words "up to", and is actually only pledging $20M. So, for $20M, they get $20M off their taxes, plus a 20-year tax abatement worth $190M. Where can I, as an individual, sign up for such an awesome deal? I'll happily pay one year's income taxes to avoid the next 20.