“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#161

Post by Ensorceled » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:34 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #126

Quarrelsome wrote: post #35

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

I tend to be sympathetic to the original poster of the story, it sounds like the woman was treated differently, and an expert being talked over like that by a host is ridiculous. It does indeed sound like an example of sexism. This probably marks me as an ignorant oppressor, but I do find this style of telling a story to be a bit confusing and off-putting though. Why all the references to "with my hands shaking" and…

Speaking up in public or confronting people has this effect on many, many people.

It is an indication of something that you think explaining a woman's own theories to her in public a "relatively straightforward conversational faux-pas". You should ponder that.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#162

Post by throwaway91111 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:34 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #113

throwaway91111 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's really interesting is that every time sexism comes up there are volunteers eager to show it isn't sexism.

Maybe you would like to address the substance of the comment, otherwise your only argument is "you are arguing and you shouldn't".

Substance? What does the comment bring up worth discussing? It's not clear the comment has any empathy for anyone involved but the asshole. What value could anyone gain from the comment?

The game of "is it bigotry or just a terrible person" is never a fun game and leaves everyone bitter.

One day it'll be nice to look at grey area and have the discussion center around what i'm looking at, rather than the fact it's grey.

Finally, this particular problem—interrupting—tends to be a major issue for SV. It may not always be sexist, but i do think women experience this disproportionately. The above comment managed to avoid any recognition of this.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#163

Post by andrepd » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:35 PM UTC

Tiki wrote: post #88

neogodless wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you possibly copy the comment here? I tried to find it in Facebook's "awesome" comment paging system, but I don't know how far through the 9000 comments I have to scroll back. (I assume the URL you posted is supposed to jump me to it, but it doesn't work for non-facebook users like me.) ETA: From the Observer article: http://observer.com/2017/06/sexism-science-facebook-mansplai... “I applaud your heroism in sta…

The comment in full: Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad that many of those inspired shared their gratitude with you. I guess that, being th…

What an amazingly balanced and collected comment. Acknowledges and thanks the person for her intervention while exposing her view and her experience and how she did not feel threatened or a victim of sexism in this incident or in her life, all the same acknowledging it's a very much real problem that should be diminished.

She sounds like a very nice and humble lady in addition to an excellent physicist.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#164

Post by trendia » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #156

trendia wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that the moderator began to ramble when he started talking about a topic that he was particularly excited about and which he was not particularly knowledgeable about.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct…

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality.

The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of:

    geeking out + bad social skills

Re: “Let her speak please”

#165

Post by robotresearcher » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:37 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #126

Quarrelsome wrote: post #35

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

I tend to be sympathetic to the original poster of the story, it sounds like the woman was treated differently, and an expert being talked over like that by a host is ridiculous. It does indeed sound like an example of sexism. This probably marks me as an ignorant oppressor, but I do find this style of telling a story to be a bit confusing and off-putting though. Why all the references to "with my hands shaking" and…

She's just reporting her experience. If she hadn't felt so intense, she probably wouldn't have spoken up. The intensity was an important part of the story.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#166

Post by andrepd » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:38 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #138

Tiki wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment in full: Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad that many of those inspired shared their gratitude with you. I guess that, being th…

>I never felt discriminated against or thwarted in my calling This just goes to prove my stance whenever the whole women in STEM fields debate is brought up. You have two kinds of women, those who are out there doing science, building things and being badasses (The likes of Veronika and Julia Evans, ones I consider as role-models) and then you have women that have questionable technical skills who keep whining about…

These two things aren't mutually exclusive. You can do both (even though granted there are lots of people out there in the latter category). You can obviously be an excellent physicist and argue against unjust situations at the same time, and also you don't have to be an expert in a field in order to recognize and protest extant sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#167

Post by jancsika » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:38 PM UTC

I remember a sociologist once remarking that prejudice (racism in the case we were discussing) exists quite apart from an individual's intentions.

Most of the comments here appear to assume that prejudice is determined solely (or mainly) by the moderator's intentions-- hence the endless quests to somehow prove what is or isn't lurking in the moderator's soul.

That seems irrelevant in this case, but I haven't read the relevant sociological literature so that's all I can say.

Are there any sociologists here that can flesh this out (with citations)?

Edit: clarification

Re: “Let her speak please”

#168

Post by FussyZeus » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

trendia wrote: post #164

FussyZeus wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct…

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills

But again, his bad social skills only kicked in for the woman.

We can't ever know for certain if it was sexism. I'm not saying take the guy out and shoot him. I'm not even saying do the thing we normally do and try and humiliate him in a public space. I'm saying: This is evidence of the accepted cultural norms in a society that I don't think anyone would disagree was largely designed by and is largely ruled over by men, and there are consequences to that.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#169

Post by _pmf_ » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:40 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #137

andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that this only happened to the only female scientist who was part of the panel.

Maybe it happened to the least assertive person in the panel?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#170

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:40 PM UTC

trendia wrote: post #145

FussyZeus wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that this only happened to the only female scientist who was part of the panel.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that the moderator began to ramble when he started talking about a topic that he was particularly excited about and which he was not particularly knowledgeable about.

[deleted]