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India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

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Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#161

Post by helloindia »

piyushpr134 wrote: post #157
sfifs wrote: post #156

Various forms of plastic bans keep getting imposed year after year in different places in India. Nothing practically happens because: a. Police has better things to do than round up people and shops carrying plastic bags. They may probably take a bribe from the shop to turn a blind eye. b. There's no really low cost and convenient alternative in many cases - in spite of a lot of shops in India using recycled newspape…

I think you are being knowingly stupid here. Bangalore has plastic ban and works very well. It does not apply to people but enforced by BBMP (municipal corporation) on businesses to either not use plastic or to use biodegradeable one. It works very well. I do not come across much plastic here

Don't know which part of Bangalore you live in. But where I'm right now I still see shops using plastic bags. And I haven't seen Bangalore become any cleaner after the supposed ban.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#162

Post by wallace_f »

chimeracoder wrote: post #155
wallace_f wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the tax was not high enough. The role of government should not be to use heavy-handed rules that arbitrarily distort market and place limits on freedoms. It can work out better for everyone to govern the externalities of human behaviour through market incentives. Everyone can win in that situation. People that still really need disposable plastic can still buy it if they need it that much. In other words, there…

> People that still really need disposable plastic can still buy it if they need it that much. In other words, there is a price equilibrium where the cost of plastic pollution to society is less than the revenue generated by plastic goods consumption. Your theory is correct, but you're not taking into account that, in Delhi, it's far easier (read: cheaper) to enforce a ban on the sale/use than it is to ensure tax com…

>Your theory is correct, but you're not taking into account that, in Delhi, it's far easier (read: cheaper) to enforce a ban on the sale/use than it is to ensure tax compliance.

I don't want to believe it, but unfortunately I think you are correct. Too many times utopian policies are made unrealistic by human nature.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#163

Post by chimeracoder »

wallace_f wrote: post #162
chimeracoder wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People that still really need disposable plastic can still buy it if they need it that much. In other words, there is a price equilibrium where the cost of plastic pollution to society is less than the revenue generated by plastic goods consumption. Your theory is correct, but you're not taking into account that, in Delhi, it's far easier (read: cheaper) to enforce a ban on the sale/use than it is to ensure tax com…

>Your theory is correct, but you're not taking into account that, in Delhi, it's far easier (read: cheaper) to enforce a ban on the sale/use than it is to ensure tax compliance. I don't want to believe it, but unfortunately I think you are correct. Too many times utopian policies are made unrealistic by human nature.

> Too many times utopian policies are made unrealistic by human nature

Agreed. But a less cynical way of thinking about it: Just think of it as a second-order model, with an additional equilibrium factor to consider. What is the cost of complying with the policy, traded off against the risk and expense of getting caught?

That's not actually a factor unique to Delhi; it just happens that the risk of getting caught and the expected expense[0] is a lot less than the expected risk/cost of getting caught for not paying Colorado sales and excise taxes on marijuana.

[0] which can include social engineering or bribery

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#164

Post by swatkat »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #160

When it comes to banning plastic bags, India takes the lead & not just Delhi; cities like Mumbai, Karwar, Tirumala, Vasco, Rajasthan all have a ban on the bag though enforcement is questionable. Where as rural villages such as 'Mawlynnong' has not only banned the plastic bags but also got the title of 'Asia's cleanest village', there are other such villages in India. It should be commended that, villages which hosts…

Exactly. Plastic has been banned (and not being used) in various cities in India. A lot of popular tourist places (Hampi, Ooty comes to mind) have 'no plastic bags' policy.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#165

Post by nether »

WalterBright wrote: post #28
Maarten88 wrote: post #13

Rwanda also has this policy, since 2008, and they enforce it. The country is very clean, it looks different than other African countries (and countries like the US), just because there is no plastic rubbish everywhere. I think this is a very good policy, and would welcome it at home. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/15/rwanda...

My father told me that American highways used to be lined with trash until it was made illegal to throw trash out the window.

The US National Park Service policy on garbage in the wilderness used to be burning it and burying the remains. It's not uncommon to find old scorched beer cans at some campsites today. They also casually encouraged interacting with animals, including bears.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#166

Post by amolgupta »

helloindia wrote: post #161
piyushpr134 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are being knowingly stupid here. Bangalore has plastic ban and works very well. It does not apply to people but enforced by BBMP (municipal corporation) on businesses to either not use plastic or to use biodegradeable one. It works very well. I do not come across much plastic here

Don't know which part of Bangalore you live in. But where I'm right now I still see shops using plastic bags. And I haven't seen Bangalore become any cleaner after the supposed ban.

The ban has limitations on the thickness of the plastic bags used. Garbage bags etc are still allowed.Over the last few months the plastic cups/plates etc have almost disappeared from the city. Himachal has such a ban for over 10 years now and has had really positive effects.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#167

Post by wallace_f »

chimeracoder wrote: post #163
wallace_f wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your theory is correct, but you're not taking into account that, in Delhi, it's far easier (read: cheaper) to enforce a ban on the sale/use than it is to ensure tax compliance. I don't want to believe it, but unfortunately I think you are correct. Too many times utopian policies are made unrealistic by human nature.

> Too many times utopian policies are made unrealistic by human nature Agreed. But a less cynical way of thinking about it: Just think of it as a second-order model, with an additional equilibrium factor to consider. What is the cost of complying with the policy, traded off against the risk and expense of getting caught? That's not actually a factor unique to Delhi; it just happens that the risk of getting caught and…

> Just think of it as a second-order model, with an additional equilibrium factor to consider.

I think that has clear, pragmatic value. That's the perspective which exists in academic economics. However, I feel that there has to be some point where we just have had enough and say, people need to stop being so awful? Or, at the end of the other side of the spectrum, perhaps we should live in a world where everyone is legally selling each other their organs--there's a balance in there somewhere where we need to have a certain faith in humanity.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#168

Post by dpacmittal »

bendermon wrote: post #26

Note: Thank you for down voting for pointing out a glaring 'fake statistics' and poor journalism, on a #1 trending post on HN. The first and the second quote do not mean the same thing, not even close. "A massive 60%t of the plastic waste in the oceans is said to have come from India, according to the Times of India." The TOI reads - "Banning disposable plastic is a huge step for the capital and the country because I…

>But this article has taken it to great heights. The TOI isn't exactly known for journalistic integrity and often conveniently pulls statistics from their backside. But to misquote the devil, this article has certainly hit the lowest level.

I second this. We should just ban TOI links on hacker news.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#169

Post by dpacmittal »

elvisds wrote: post #128
geodel wrote: post #35

I do not see any coverage in Indian media. Could it be one of those official notifications which public at large hardly follows but it breeds corruption by enforcement officials. Though looking at Indian papers I came across this rather frightening news: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/pollutio...

The ban has been active in Bangalore since March, 2016 [1] and in Mangalore for much longer [2] I was surprised to learn Delhi did not have such a ban so far [1] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/Total-plas... [2] http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Mangalore/mangalore-bans...

>The ban has been active in Bangalore since March, 2016 [1] and in Mangalore for much longer [2]

It is not enforced though. I'm living in Bangalore and shopkeepers still give me plastic bags all the time. Banning something, or passing a law is only half the battle; enforcing them is the real issue. And you cannot enforce the laws because corruption is so wide and rampant in India that nothing can be done about it, or so it feels.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#170

Post by dpacmittal »

piyushpr134 wrote: post #157
sfifs wrote: post #156

Various forms of plastic bans keep getting imposed year after year in different places in India. Nothing practically happens because: a. Police has better things to do than round up people and shops carrying plastic bags. They may probably take a bribe from the shop to turn a blind eye. b. There's no really low cost and convenient alternative in many cases - in spite of a lot of shops in India using recycled newspape…

I think you are being knowingly stupid here. Bangalore has plastic ban and works very well. It does not apply to people but enforced by BBMP (municipal corporation) on businesses to either not use plastic or to use biodegradeable one. It works very well. I do not come across much plastic here

I get plastic bags from shopkeepers in Bangalore all the freaking time. Sometimes I've had to refuse taking the bag and simple carried stuff in my hand.
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