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Make America Hate Again

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Re: Make America Hate Again

#161

Post by yummyfajitas »

thex10 wrote: post #152
yummyfajitas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I'm told I'm racist because I think blacks and whites are interchangeable, and because I don't care about one over the other. I'm told I'm racist for thinking the opposite. I'm told it's racist to discriminate on the basis of race. I'm also told it's racist NOT to do so. The closest principle I can find that predicts who is considered a racist is "republican = racist". Can you provide a clear definition of racism…

> I'm told > I'm told > I'm told You're on HN, so you're obviously capable of research, learning, etc. Why don't you go do your own research and try to understand instead of blindly listening to what you're told and then complaining of being confused?

The parent poster claims it's clear. I'm pointing out that there seem to be widely disparate and inconsistent opinions on the matter.

The best way to prove me wrong would be to provide a clear and unambiguous definition. Strangely, no one has done that.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#162

Post by talmand »

sharemywin wrote: post #112
selllikesybok wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd start here - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism #1 leads to #3 leads to #2. But there is a lot more to it. Not a simple concept. There is a lot of reading to do if you'd like to understand more. Can provide some links.

I know this is going to come off like a "smart ass" But, I really curious what people think. Can someone be a bigot towards racists? I've heard the argument that the left is intolerant of intolerance and there for hypocritical, which sort of on it's face sounds plausible but seems more like an alt-fact to me. But I can't put my finger of why. It kind of reminds me of the time I was arguing with my brother and his res…

I would say these days anything along the lines of what you are asking is difficult to answer. The language concerning such topics have been so muddled with people's opinions of what words actually mean that no one fully understands what the other side is trying to say. Which only ends in personal attacks.

It is one thing to try to deal with people who refuse to argue with facts; it's quite another to deal with people who refuse to accept that their can be different interpretations of the same facts by different people.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#163

Post by jhoechtl »

As an European I - somehow - welcome this new sort of policy. It reads to me as "we concentrate primarily on ourselves". Which I think is a good attitude.

I hope this sort of thinking becomes more widespread. Sort of an anti-globalization movement.

We have and always will have globalization. In cyber-space. The open source community is an incredible example for how that works. But please concentrate globalisation to remain virtual instead of bazillion goods being transported all over the planet and contributing to pollution. This is also true for long-termn workforce movements.

Come, see, go, leave no traces. Thank you!

Re: Make America Hate Again

#164

Post by thex10 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #161
thex10 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm told > I'm told > I'm told You're on HN, so you're obviously capable of research, learning, etc. Why don't you go do your own research and try to understand instead of blindly listening to what you're told and then complaining of being confused?

The parent poster claims it's clear. I'm pointing out that there seem to be widely disparate and inconsistent opinions on the matter. The best way to prove me wrong would be to provide a clear and unambiguous definition. Strangely, no one has done that.

Why would you assume I need to disprove the assertion that there's are disparate and inconsistent opinions? Of course there are! That's why they are opinions!

Also I'm not sure why you'd look to HN for clarity on any sort of social issue. That's not this community's expertise. That's why I'm saying go forth and learn.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#165

Post by talmand »

metafunctor wrote: post #26
_xhok wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, everyone knows racism is obviously bad. What we're back to is having to prove that what the opponent is proposing actually constitutes racism. One argument I hear is that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with the West's values, that immigrants from those countries don't integrate well, and that the dangerous ideas within Islam aren't limited to radical fundamentalists. Under this view, a temporary ban is not n…

I agree. Labelling all people from entire countries as not eligible to enter your country is, by definition, racist. I don't see how that is not clear. I thought it was clear. I thought people defending these executive orders think it's all fine and good to basically blacklist entire countries and every person on earth who is a citizen of those countries.

>> Labelling all people from entire countries as not eligible to enter your country is, by definition, racist.

Um, no it is not.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#166

Post by [deleted] »

alistairSH wrote: post #75
hueving wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they don't believe they are being racist? Closing borders to some Muslim dominated countries while leaving them open to the largest Muslim countries in the world does give the impression that maybe it's not about being Muslim and it's more about nations.

If that were so, we would have to put Saudi on the ban list. Most of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi. Saudi has produced some of the world's most notorious terrorists. Do we suddenly think Saudi society has changed enough that no Saudis are prone to terrorism?

[deleted]

Re: Make America Hate Again

#167

Post by philfrasty »

jhoechtl wrote: post #163

As an European I - somehow - welcome this new sort of policy. It reads to me as "we concentrate primarily on ourselves". Which I think is a good attitude. I hope this sort of thinking becomes more widespread. Sort of an anti-globalization movement. We have and always will have globalization. In cyber-space. The open source community is an incredible example for how that works. But please concentrate globalisation to…

„...bazillion goods being transported all over the planet and contributing to pollution...“

This seems to be oversimplified. A massive global supply-chain might still produce less polution than carrying around lots of small quantities of goods locally from producer to endconsumer.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#168

Post by pluma »

akvadrako wrote: post #51
Ygg2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick question: Can babies be racist? I ask because after seeing babies being defined as racist, I have no idea what racism means.

What do you mean by "racist"? If you mean discriminating based on race, then of course, everybody is racist. Haven't you seen those videos of babies that cry the first time they encounter a face of a different color?

I cried as a baby the first time I was put in a group with other babies (most likely of the same color as me).

I think the word you're looking for is xenophobia. And while xenophobia certainly isn't any less of a problem, calling it racism makes it sound far more grandiose than it really is.

Racism is a political (and ideological) issue. Feminists define racism in terms of power dynamics. Supremacists use racism to attribute different qualities to different ethnic groups. Historically racism can be seen as the latent effects of slavery and racial segregation.

Xenophobia is just a mental bias that used to give humans an evolutionary advantage but is becoming increasingly counterproductive in a globalised society. It's a flaw in human thinking that leads us to irrational attitudes but that can be overcome with conscious effort and exposing ourselves to that which is foreign to us.

Conflating the two is one of the main reasons race is still such a hot topic in the US. The US is culturally and ethnically diverse, yes, but that diversity is not equally distributed. In rural white majority areas "blacks" and "Jews" and "orientals" are still as foreign as ever and calling these people racist because they are afraid or unsympathetic of something they only hear about in news reports and on TV is not only unfair but unproductive, no matter how reassuring it may feel to us educated cosmopolitans who are so very progressive and distant from that backwater mindset.

That is why Trump got elected. Republicans who were sick of being told they're racist and Democrats who were disillusioned with the choice of candidates. It didn't even take a record-breaking Republican turnout to get Trump elected, it just took enough Democrats being disinterested in supporting their own candidate.

But I digress. I don't even have any skin in the game -- I'm not even in the US.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#169

Post by talmand »

kalleboo wrote: post #144
Shivetya wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

however he didn't create the list of the countries that were banned.

How is that relevant? Isn't it even worse if he just took some list of countries he doesn't know the rationale behind their inclusion and banned them? In tech, this is a problem with things like random half-assed anti-spam lists that people find and adopt with no critical thinking behind.

From my understanding he used the same list for the same reasons from when the list was created by Obama's DHS; security concerns.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#170

Post by yummyfajitas »

thex10 wrote: post #164
yummyfajitas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent poster claims it's clear. I'm pointing out that there seem to be widely disparate and inconsistent opinions on the matter. The best way to prove me wrong would be to provide a clear and unambiguous definition. Strangely, no one has done that.

Why would you assume I need to disprove the assertion that there's are disparate and inconsistent opinions? Of course there are! That's why they are opinions ! Also I'm not sure why you'd look to HN for clarity on any sort of social issue. That's not this community's expertise. That's why I'm saying go forth and learn.

Metafunctor asserted that he knows what racism means, and implied that it was obvious. I was disputing this, that's all.
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