To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right • Hacker News Board

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#161

Post by shostack » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:13 AM UTC

namaemuta wrote: post #146

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have found programmers to be far more receptive to blunt criticism than my other non-programmer friends. The work of a programmer is to sit in front of a soulless machine that has no inhibition in telling the programmer made a mistake on his code at regular intervals. You need to be pain intolerant to be a programmer, while in other roles pain avoidance is the norm.

Actually, a machine never accuses you of being the responsible of that error. It usually says "there's an error in the line..." but never addresses it towards the programmer even though they know that they are the responsible ones of that mistake. And in fact, that is one of the techniques of conflict management between partners, addressing the problem instead of finding the responsible of it.

Sounds like an opportunity for a more opinionated error logging tool...

"@Dave, you seem to have made yet another type error on line 56. @jon recently committed code that didn't fail any integration tests. Why can't you be more like @jon?"

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#162

Post by shostack » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:15 AM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #62

While this is an important skill to have, I've also learned over time that there are certain types of people where it's easier to let them "be right" and accommodate the consequences. I didn't always think this way. In the past, I would say that people are reasonable, it's always possible to figure out what the truth is, especially if I acknowledge the possibility that I am often wrong. But now I realize that some pe…

Ah, I see you too have learned how to have a happier marriage.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#163

Post by Nursie » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:16 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #149

Nursie wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ. This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief. Not all forms of faith and belief require you to reject evidence, mind, but this one most certainly does.

> I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ. That stretches the definition of an idiot considerably. > This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief. That could be beneficial for one's emotional health (belief in higher power and all that) and thus the smart t…

The other thing that strikes me as a conundrum here is that, if one is aware of deliberately choosing unreality over reality, are you really choosing unreality?

I.E. how is it possible to choose fiction as fact in the knowledge it is fiction?

I don't really understand the mindset...

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#164

Post by andrepd » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:19 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

>Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem.

This is probably one of the most insightful things you can ever read. Internalise this and your whole way of approaching others will be changed. This is valid for arguments and discussions, but really for interpersonal relationships in general.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#165

Post by bonoboTP » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:22 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #131

vintermann wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that there's a meteor heading towards earth. All evidence suggests that it will hit in three days, and wipe out all multicellular life - it's a big one. What do you do? How do you live your life your last three days? One school of thought says, disregard the evidence. Assert, against it all, that the meteor is going to miss. Or if that's hard, decide to trust someone who asserts it (this is usually easier). T…

"I think creationist's thinking is something like this: 1. If evolution is true, then God is not." Serious question - is this US-specific line of thinking? Because I was raised in Poland, which is ultra-religious and if you aren't a catholic you will be ostracized from your community, and yet evolution was NEVER questioned in my education, and I went to private catholic schools. It's widely accepted by everyone, I th…

In Europe, even religious people don't take their religion seriously. It's rather a personal, cultural thing, something that makes one's soul feel good, something that creates communities, gives hope and consolation etc. It's put in a totally different sphere than worldly matters, like science, physics, biology etc. Religious talks even at ceremonies is always about how humans feel (and of course endlessly repeating the story of Jesus). But they don't usually touch topics that "smell" scientific and fact-like.

But this is quite a new development. It's hard for us to appreciate it, but there are other conceptions of religion's role in life. In the US, many religious people believe that things in the Bible literally describe how stuff is, it's not just an allegory or metaphor to help people in their lives. (Or similarly in Islam, the religion is not separate from all other aspects of life, but an inseparable part, without which nothing else makes sense).

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#166

Post by dagw » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:28 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #131

vintermann wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that there's a meteor heading towards earth. All evidence suggests that it will hit in three days, and wipe out all multicellular life - it's a big one. What do you do? How do you live your life your last three days? One school of thought says, disregard the evidence. Assert, against it all, that the meteor is going to miss. Or if that's hard, decide to trust someone who asserts it (this is usually easier). T…

"I think creationist's thinking is something like this: 1. If evolution is true, then God is not." Serious question - is this US-specific line of thinking? Because I was raised in Poland, which is ultra-religious and if you aren't a catholic you will be ostracized from your community, and yet evolution was NEVER questioned in my education, and I went to private catholic schools. It's widely accepted by everyone, I th…

is this US-specific line of thinking?

Indirectly. Creationism is really only a thing within certain subsets of baptist and evangelical branches of Christianity, and these branches haven't take a large hold in Europe, whereas in the US they've flourished. Catholics have never really gone for it, even in the US, as far as I'm aware.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#167

Post by soneca » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:31 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

Or change your own mind.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#168

Post by coldtea » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:36 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #163

coldtea wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ. That stretches the definition of an idiot considerably. > This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief. That could be beneficial for one's emotional health (belief in higher power and all that) and thus the smart t…

The other thing that strikes me as a conundrum here is that, if one is aware of deliberately choosing unreality over reality, are you really choosing unreality? I.E. how is it possible to choose fiction as fact in the knowledge it is fiction? I don't really understand the mindset...

>I.E. how is it possible to choose fiction as fact in the knowledge it is fiction?

That's just the moment of choice though. Given enough conditioning and getting used to it yourself, it can become as convincing (to your own self) as any reality.

Besides, don't people chose convenient truths over reality all the time, creationists or not?

Even the belief in science, which usually is a belief in fiction (an ideal of how it should be conducted) as opposed to how it's practiced and what interests and motivations are in play (from corporate tampering to "I'll review this peer reviewed paper favourably, because that guy is a friend of a friend, or they might help with my grants, etc." -- which can even function at a subconscious level, e.g. instinctively being more positively predisposed to papers by people you know or can help your career).

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#169

Post by dagw » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:38 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #144

coldtea wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. You'd be surprised. You can easily find creationists with higher IQ than you, that can out-solve problems in your field faster than you. And the same for most categories one can dismiss as "idiots", except people with verifiable cognitive impairment.

I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ. This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief. Not all forms of faith and belief require you to reject evidence, mind, but this one most certainly does.

I knew a very smart and successful scientist doing biochemistry research at a pharma company who fell squarely in the Intelligent Design camp. Rather than seeing it as a wholesale abandonment of science they simply felt that the evidence of the prevailing scientific view was not that strong, and that ID offered firmer theory for the beginning/evolution of life than any other theory.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#170

Post by cristianpascu » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 11:40 AM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #164

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

>Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. This is probably one of the most insightful things you can ever read. Internalise this and your whole way of approaching others will be changed. This is valid…

I too agree wholeheartedly. It took me many years (35yo now) to learn this, the very hard way, on internet and specially in life. A MD in Philosophy helped a lot, or it's been actually essential for my life path.

Interesting, given that I'm a 'creationist idiot' (I won't go into details), I never actually debate this with anyone that doesn't have the theological (and hermeneutical skills) necessary to understand WHY on this old Earth someone would think it's young. It's a complex problem, touching on many areas and, yes, very stupid arguments can be brought up in favor and against specific flavors of creationism.

BUT, regarding ID (which is often breathlessly conflated with creationism), when I talk with people that have the philosophical expertise to understand it (but not agree with it), I have only met respectful attitudes. This is not to say that it convinces me I'm right in what I believe. I'm still the kind of skeptics that gives plausibility percentages to his beliefs.

Regarding life in general, no amount of patience will harm you.