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To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

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141–150 of 307 posts

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only when you understand their argument... I couldn't agree more. As a lifelong believer in science, raised in the Midwest among creationists, I have come into many conversations with intelligent people who somehow place faith in front of evidence. It's demoralizing to realize the frequency that this phenomenon occurs. I've recently scheduled a trip to the Creation Museum to observe the message at its core (half fo…

Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. It's one thing to go to a church (there even might be purely social reasons), and it's another thing to discard overwhelming scientific evidence and believe something based on the principle of not needing any evidence at all. I become especially sad when I think of the confused minds of the poor children of these people. On the topic, I…

>Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists.

You'd be surprised.

You can easily find creationists with higher IQ than you, that can out-solve problems in your field faster than you.

And the same for most categories one can dismiss as "idiots", except people with verifiable cognitive impairment.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that there's a meteor heading towards earth. All evidence suggests that it will hit in three days, and wipe out all multicellular life - it's a big one. What do you do? How do you live your life your last three days? One school of thought says, disregard the evidence. Assert, against it all, that the meteor is going to miss. Or if that's hard, decide to trust someone who asserts it (this is usually easier). T…

"I think creationist's thinking is something like this: 1. If evolution is true, then God is not." Serious question - is this US-specific line of thinking? Because I was raised in Poland, which is ultra-religious and if you aren't a catholic you will be ostracized from your community, and yet evolution was NEVER questioned in my education, and I went to private catholic schools. It's widely accepted by everyone, I th…

This is mostly a US affliction, but spreading. Not catholic though - about two popes ago the pope issued a paper saying evolution was god's method and that the science was revealing the glory of God's work.

The problem in parts of the US is that some religious leaders decided, quite explicitly, to use evolution to drive a wedge between modern, 'materialist', scientific thinking and their followers. I think this is because they could forsee their congregations falling as more people became better informed and drifted away from religion. So they found a way to make it "us or them" and forge a new sort of unity through opposition. Unfortunately it took hold quite well and has been spread outside the US by US influenced churches and pastors.

Edit - this is part of it - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#143
> To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

Yes, sometimes, but in many cases this only plays into the hands of narcissists. Remember that narcissists listen to you when you tell them they're right, then shut down completely and/or go on the attack when you try to offer constructive criticism.

Nobody showed this behavior more dramatically than Steve Jobs, with whom I briefly tried to work in the early 1980s. A classic malignant narcissist, Steve just absorbed people's energy and his behavior never improved. Eventually I refused to try to work with him.

The tl;dr -- the title's suggestion sometimes backfires spectacularly.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. It's one thing to go to a church (there even might be purely social reasons), and it's another thing to discard overwhelming scientific evidence and believe something based on the principle of not needing any evidence at all. I become especially sad when I think of the confused minds of the poor children of these people. On the topic, I…

> Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. You'd be surprised. You can easily find creationists with higher IQ than you, that can out-solve problems in your field faster than you. And the same for most categories one can dismiss as "idiots", except people with verifiable cognitive impairment.

I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ.

This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief. Not all forms of faith and belief require you to reject evidence, mind, but this one most certainly does.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#145
It's funny, I remember from some years ago reading similar advice under the heading "How to disagree with Americans", the implication being that American speakers could not take direct disagreement, and required a little ego-massage first. And of course that we British had no such foolish pride.

I think probably it's a little more universal than that :)

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#146
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found programmers to be far more receptive to blunt criticism than my other non-programmer friends. I think it's just a frame of mind to accept that will be wrong a lot and that is fine. It would take a whole lot of cognitive dissonance to get through a decent sized software project and imagine it is all flawless or couldn't be even slightly better in some way.

> I have found programmers to be far more receptive to blunt criticism than my other non-programmer friends. The work of a programmer is to sit in front of a soulless machine that has no inhibition in telling the programmer made a mistake on his code at regular intervals. You need to be pain intolerant to be a programmer, while in other roles pain avoidance is the norm.

Actually, a machine never accuses you of being the responsible of that error. It usually says "there's an error in the line..." but never addresses it towards the programmer even though they know that they are the responsible ones of that mistake.

And in fact, that is one of the techniques of conflict management between partners, addressing the problem instead of finding the responsible of it.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#147
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On a more serious note: For me, the distinction between belief and science disappear somewhere around "all models are wrong, some are useful". For me, both models have been very useful. What useful model does creationism put forward?

Mostly not creationism specifically but my religion.

Useful perhaps, in that it makes you feel good. But like another poster pointed out, nazi ideology made its followers feel pretty good.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that there's a meteor heading towards earth. All evidence suggests that it will hit in three days, and wipe out all multicellular life - it's a big one. What do you do? How do you live your life your last three days? One school of thought says, disregard the evidence. Assert, against it all, that the meteor is going to miss. Or if that's hard, decide to trust someone who asserts it (this is usually easier). T…

"I think creationist's thinking is something like this: 1. If evolution is true, then God is not." Serious question - is this US-specific line of thinking? Because I was raised in Poland, which is ultra-religious and if you aren't a catholic you will be ostracized from your community, and yet evolution was NEVER questioned in my education, and I went to private catholic schools. It's widely accepted by everyone, I th…

> I was raised in Poland, which is ultra-religious

I grew up in Italy. No comment needed, I suppose :-)

Still science is science, and religion is religion. They manage to live together in (enough) harmony. But idiot thesis like creationism are never given any more credit than a promise by a politician in the last days before an election.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#149
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. You'd be surprised. You can easily find creationists with higher IQ than you, that can out-solve problems in your field faster than you. And the same for most categories one can dismiss as "idiots", except people with verifiable cognitive impairment.

I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ. This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief. Not all forms of faith and belief require you to reject evidence, mind, but this one most certainly does.

>I think the post you reply to is saying that the fact that someone believes fervently in creation over evolution actually makes them an idiot, regardless of IQ.

That stretches the definition of an idiot considerably.

>This would be because it is a firm rejection of scientific evidence in favour of belief.

That could be beneficial for one's emotional health (belief in higher power and all that) and thus the smart thing to do in some cases.

Who said "identifying reality correctly" is the smarter thing to do? Sometimes, not being too logical can have great benefits.

Here's an old argument for this:

>Origin of the Logical. — Where has logic originated in men's heads? Undoubtedly out of the illogical, the domain of which must originally lave been immense. But numberless beings who reasoned otherwise than we do at present, perished; albeit that they may have come nearer to truth than we! Whoever, for example, could not discern the "like" often enough with regard to food, and with regard to animals dangerous to him, whoever, therefore, deduced too slowly, or was too circumspect in his deductions, had smaller probability of survival than he who in all similar cases immediately divined the equality. The preponderating inclination, however, to deal with the similar as the equal — an illogical inclination, for there is nothing [100%] equal to another — created the whole basis of logic. It was just so (in order that the conception of [a shared] substance should originate, this being indispensable to logic, although in the strictest sense nothing actual corresponds to it) that for a long period the changing process in things had to be overlooked, and remain unperceived. The beings not seeing correctly [and saw similar things as "same" and static] had an advantage over those who saw everything "in flux". In itself every high degree of circumspection in conclusions, every sceptical inclination, is a great danger to life. No living being might have been preserved unless the contrary inclination — to affirm rather than suspend judgment, to mistake and fabricate rather than wait, to assent rather than deny, to decide rather than be in the right — had been cultivated with extraordinary assiduity. The course of logical thought and reasoning in our modern brain corresponds to a process and struggle of impulses, which singly and in themselves are all very illogical and unjust ; we experience usually only the result of the struggle, so rapidly and secretly does this primitive mechanism now operate in us.

(Friedrich Nietzsche, Gaya Scienza -- with small edits in [] to make the excerpt clearer)

And here's a newer one:

>Hoffman: Right. The classic argument is that those of our ancestors who saw more accurately had a competitive advantage over those who saw less accurately and thus were more likely to pass on their genes that coded for those more accurate perceptions, so after thousands of generations we can be quite confident that we’re the offspring of those who saw accurately, and so we see accurately. That sounds very plausible. But I think it is utterly false. It misunderstands the fundamental fact about evolution, which is that it’s about fitness functions—mathematical functions that describe how well a given strategy achieves the goals of survival and reproduction. The mathematical physicist Chetan Prakash proved a theorem that I devised that says: According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness. Never.

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illus...

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only when you understand their argument... I couldn't agree more. As a lifelong believer in science, raised in the Midwest among creationists, I have come into many conversations with intelligent people who somehow place faith in front of evidence. It's demoralizing to realize the frequency that this phenomenon occurs. I've recently scheduled a trip to the Creation Museum to observe the message at its core (half fo…

Imagine that there's a meteor heading towards earth. All evidence suggests that it will hit in three days, and wipe out all multicellular life - it's a big one. What do you do? How do you live your life your last three days? One school of thought says, disregard the evidence. Assert, against it all, that the meteor is going to miss. Or if that's hard, decide to trust someone who asserts it (this is usually easier). T…

> If evolution is true, then God is not.

By the way, this is disputable. I'm not denying that idiots/creationists use this argument; I question the argument itself.

If evolution is true, a literary interpretation of the Bible is not. Still, evolution can be seen as a wonderful present from a "superior intelligence".

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