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World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

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Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#161
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this. Zurich is in Switzerland. I don't think even with this tunnel opening we will be getting from Zurich to Milan in under 2 hours... Are your numbers wrong? Edit: we will be looking at journey times of about 170 minutes from Zurich to Milan AFTER the tunnel opens.

The TGV Paris-Lyon takes less than 2 hours to cover a substantially longer distance.

The terrain geography in Switzerland doesn't allow you to drive constantly with 300km/h, in France it's a different story

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#162
post #35
post #13

You can check a small animation[1] of the rail traffic from this upcoming weekend when the first passenger trains will pass through the tunnel http://maps.vasile.ch/transit-sbb/?hms=08:40:00&day=2016-06-... [1] http://imgur.com/cN3HKPp?v=2

So how much time approximately will be saved vs the existing routes?

MagnumOpus is right, GBT will save ~1hr of travel, check out this infographic where you can see the comparison of stage coach, train, car and new train via GBT: http://interactive.swissinfo.ch/infographic/Gotthard_Strecke...

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#163
post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

That is just plain wrong. The project was delayed multiple times and cost a few billions more than estimated. It was on time and budget because the time and budget were adjusted constantly.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still hoping that they will build that underground train station eventually. Would be awesome.

I'm afraid that train has left the station (sorry for the pun). All the construction infrastructure is gone, and in half a year, there will be hundreds of trains thundering through the tunnel every day. The Porta Alpina was economically questionable to begin with, but now it would just be non-sensical. (Saying this as someone from a region that would have had an immense benefit of the Porta Alpina station)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porta_Alpina:

Porta Alpina ("Alpine Gate") was a proposed railway station to be located in the middle of the Gotthard Base Tunnel in southern Switzerland. Intended to promote tourism and the economy in the region of Graubünden, the project was put on hold as uneconomical in 2007, and then indefinitely shelved by the Swiss authorities in 2012.

Porta Alpina would have been the deepest underground train station in the world at 800 metres underground, outclassing by far Arsenalna Metro station at 105.5 metres.

The station was proposed to be located near a crossover between the northbound and southbound tunnels and to be linked to the surface by the world's highest elevator, using shafts built near the village of Sedrun for the construction of the tunnel. Construction costs were estimated at 40-50 million Swiss francs, with annual operating costs of 2.5 million francs. It was initially projected to be opened in 2016 after the Base Tunnel was scheduled to come into service.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#165
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, building passenger transit in an urban area is a very different thing, even if a long underground tunnel is a challenge in itself. Mining through solid rock is not really that expensive these days. But when building metropolitan transit, arranging traffic around of an existing population is not easy, and building transit stations is an expensive business. Making a tunnel through solid, hard rock is in any ca…

> Regarding cost of mining solid rock: in fact, where I live, I think in the construction of underground train line, the actual cost of mining is pretty much offset by the price for sale of rock matter Any chance that you are living near https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drammen_Spiral ? I would have dismissed your claim as totally absurd had I not read about this gem of an improbable building project before!

No, not Norway, but Finland. However we have similar solid and hard bedrock, and the same economic logic where rock chips are needed in construction.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#168
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want infrastructure engineering to be like poker, and neither should you. The only way in which they are alike is that there is a strong possibility of someone getting killed if you cheat.

I 100% want engineering to be like poker. I say that as a registered professional engineer with many friends on crews currently standing in holes that I have designed. Understand what I mean when I say "like poker": the poker mindset is a very analytical, statistically oriented approach. The best players never make a bet/call/fold without some form of logical basis for their plays. They have an internal model that te…

> Engineering - especially tunneling - is a gamble.

I'm a civil engineer, and I do structural design work for a living.

If you're not trolling and you do mean what you've been saying, you're being very disingenuous and in the process proving to be true and perfectly valid all comments regarding the virtues of the swiss system in contrast with the typical engineering work around the world, the one you so vocally identify yourself with.

Engineering is not poker. It never was. Only bad engineering is like poker, and it shows in their work. You're confusing basic aspects of reliability analysis (the "this structure will fail 5% of the time" comment) with being poker. European structural design standards dictate that the lower failure probability of an engineering work, for its entire design working life, is around 0,05%. This is not poker.

As you've mentioned, the design process is centered on risk analysis and balances the economic impact of safeguarding against risk scenarios, but this is entirely immaterial for the discussion. The discussion is about planning, and the lack thereof. All projects are planned to an extent, but the point is that planning is often insufficient in the sense that important variables are left unknown until breaking ground for any number of reasons, one of which is this mentality that its unacceptable to spend much on risk assessment ("why spend money on non-destructive tests to infer the geotechnical profile and properties of each stratum in the preliminary design stage if we're boring a hole in there and eventually we'll reach that point ourselves?").

Unknowingly or not, you've supported this observation throughout all this discussion by arguing in favor of the virtues of handling a civil engineer project like "poker", and tolerating and accepting the occurrence of surprises associated with unacceptably high risk probabilities that go way up to 5%. This is precisely the problem everyone is pointing out and you've tried to deny but ended up supporting. This is the sole responsible for the typical cost overruns in civil engineering projects, and you inadvertently demonstrated why sadly this still rings true up to this day.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't compare those two projects.

Clearly you can... Let's see: Underground?: Yes, Yes Budget: $2bn, $12bn (or whatever) On-time?: Yes, Yes Is a tunnel?: No, Yes ...

> Clearly you can... Let's see:

One involves carving a 150km tunnel through a granite massif which is the Alps in a scale that never before was done in history of mankind, the other involves drilling a tunnel through alluvium and sedimentary deposits pretty much like any medium-scale tunneling work.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#170
post #12
post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

Scotland's latest bridge coming in under budget and on time even: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensferry_Crossing

Looks like you spoke to soon! Five month delay..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36...

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