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Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

theguardian.com

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Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#161

Post by mikeash »

lhnz wrote: post #54
threatofrain wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of this article is not that children are more dangerous than terrorists. The point is that terrorism over-dominates national discussion of priorities. Focus on terrorism is worrisome because it kills relatively fewer people than the top national stressors, it distracts the nation in its very limited capacity to discuss anything, it justifies extreme expenditure, and by its covert nature it is difficult to m…

I tried to explain to somebody else here [0] already - "[This establishes] a frame in which stressors are measured solely by their impact on fatality. The extra attention given to terrorism relates more to the conservative fear of losing their 'way of life'. Attempting to measure both of these things solely in relation to their impact on fatality misunderstands the reasons for fear over terrorism and creates a commun…

The "way of life" thing either depends on terrorism killing enough people to destroy our way of life, or it's a self-fulfilling prophecy when we destroy our own way of life by overreacting. Either way, "terrorism doesn't kill very many people, so don't worry about it so much" addresses it. Not that people will listen, but it doesn't fail because it misses the point.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#162

Post by justin_vanw »

More people in the US die every year from television than die from terrorism in the last 10 years.

I don't mean by being sedentary contributing to heart disease. I mean physically killed by a television falling on you.

http://theweek.com/articles/469421/shocking-number-deaths-ca...

This article is misleading. Virtually nobody dies of terrorism. Virtually nobody dies from toddler shootings.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#163

Post by zamalek »

imgabe wrote: post #145

To play devil's advocate, which gun law would have prevented this person from getting shot by her toddler? As a gun rights advocate, she presumably has been around guns for a long time and should have been well versed in how to handle them safely. I doubt there's any training that could be mandated that would exceed the experience she already had. Short of banning guns entirely, which would require a constitutional a…

I live in South Africa and while our gun situation is very depressing, I've never heard of a situation like this happening here. The owner needs absolutely no common sense about how to safely store a gun. There are very specific laws about this and there are heavy penalties for neglecting them. Your training is not about safety, that is merely a consequence of learning the rules.

> No amount of legislation is going to prevent idiots from being idiots.

You can, however, swing probabilities.

> She should definitely be facing some harsh penalties for negligence and endangering a minor if she isn't already.

This is a key point I think. One of the main arguments I hear from gun advocates is "protecting your family." For argument's sake assume that this is a valid point, play the devil's advocate. By leaving a loaded weapon lying around there is a higher probability of your family getting hurt by that weapon, than someone walking into your home and hurting your family. At this point you have become an imminent threat to everyone around you and that threat must be eliminated, possibly by preventing your whole household from ever laying their hands on a weapon (blacklisting).

In other words, by allowing Gilt to own a gun you are endangering her life and her child's life. She should not be let near one.

Settling the gun advocacy argument is clearly going to take a long time, but "common sense" laws can be put in place until a conclusion has been reached. In the short-term this would benefit both sides of the argument were they not both so belligerent.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#164

Post by LyndsySimon »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #106
LyndsySimon wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quite pro-gun, and terrorism doesn't even register on the reasons why. I believe the same could be said of most everyone I know in that community. It's not about fear; it's primarily about a worldview that centers on individuality and distrust of government.

It was really meant more tongue in cheek than it came across. Politicians just need to stop with the terrorism war chanting, period.

No argument here on that front :)

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#165

Post by throwaway21816 »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #121
Loque wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears everything was correctly enforced? He went through the appropriate channels - filled in the correct forms, and appeared sane at the time of application. I guess another question would be, why on earth would anyone need _any_ of those guns.

There was a lot of discussion at the time, and my recollection is he was already known to mental health services. The Sun et al had him painted as a rabid survivalist of course. Wiki seems to say it was retrospective diagnosis, so I'm not sure... I can understand wanting to collect, or at least try, different types, but who in the world needs an assault rifle?

> but who in the world needs an assault rifle?

Ignoring the "assault rifle" part of this. Semi-automatic carbines are great fun to shoot, they have a lower recoil impulse than traditional larger rifles and military surplus ammunition and parts generally creates a cheap and easy way to enjoy firearms. You can get an AR-15 for $600 or so and spend an afternoon enjoying it without a hurt shoulder or a bloody nose.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#166

Post by meaot »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103
pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

Everday patrol officers having an AR-15 in the trunk is a fairly direct consequence of the North Hollywood Shootout [1]. The Miami FBI shootout also contributed to the adoption of conventional semi-automatic handguns over revolvers [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#167

Post by lolc »

imgabe wrote: post #145

To play devil's advocate, which gun law would have prevented this person from getting shot by her toddler? As a gun rights advocate, she presumably has been around guns for a long time and should have been well versed in how to handle them safely. I doubt there's any training that could be mandated that would exceed the experience she already had. Short of banning guns entirely, which would require a constitutional a…

I think just having a culture shift away from the romantic idea that private guns deter crime and offer protection would bring down the amount of gun accidents considerably. Punishing people after something bad happens turns out to not work very well for prevention. Another romantic idea demolished by reality.

Compare:

Psychoactive substances: We just lock up anybody touching them. Guns: We lock up anybody abusing them.

Observe how both approaches fail to protect us from irresponsible people.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#168

Post by zrail »

throwaway21816 wrote: post #154
alistairSH wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because guns are expressly designed to kill. They serve no other purpose (ignoring sporting uses, as those are basically a proxy for proving how well one can kill with a gun). There is no reason anybody outside of the military needs a gun to carry out their day to day jobs. That isn't true of cars or hospitals.

Knives are expressly designed to cut. They serve no Purpose (ignoring cooking, as those are basically a proxy for proving how well one can cut with a knife). There is no reason anybody outside of the kitchen needs a knife to carry out their day to day jobs. Encryption is expressly designed to hide terrorists. It serves no purpose (ignoring privacy, as that is basically a proxy for proving how well one can hide from t…

This is ridiculous and you know it.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#169

Post by LyndsySimon »

hnal943 wrote: post #139
jcromartie wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And part of the reason why cops are armed to the teeth is because the citizens are. It would require real total mutual disarmament of citizens and police to change anything in the USA. So I don't see it changing any time soon.

...because the criminals are. And therein lies to fatal flaw of gun control - only people who are law abiding would comply with the new laws.

I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. In fact, the opposite is likely true.

In the US most criminals who are armed have inexpensive, unreliable handguns. An armed criminal in the UK (while less common) would seem more likely to have something like a submachinegun or a machine pistol. If the penalty is severe and the gun is rare and expensive... why go through all that trouble and risk for a .32 revolver, when you could just as easily obtain a Skorpion?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#170

Post by welterde »

StreamBright wrote: post #60
jfaucett wrote: post #16

Using the argument form of this article you could make any number of outrageously nonsensical claims. The form is basically X does Y more than Z, where X occurs vastly more than Z in some population. Examples: 1. white caucasians commit more crime in the Canada than all other ethnic groups combined! 2. In Sweden the common cold is more lethal than HIV! In my opinion article exemplifies the antithesis of a decent argu…

I think most of these articles are trying play the emotional card and most people ignore facts like: - higher gun ownership rate does not cause higher gun related homicides (check Switzerland or Finland compare to US) - lower gun ownership rate does not cause lower mass shootings ( http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201... ) I don't understand why people try to make these conclusions. Here is th…

Not that this will change your opinion, but Switzerland is not that great of an example to support your "fact" (and even if it was - a few outliers don't prove the lack of an correlation).

For starters it has fairly strict gun laws (essentially no carry permits, gun safes, etc.).

Second the reason for the high gun ownership is the mandatory military service (no standing army) - you can purchase your service weapon at the end of your service period. And for the service weapon the ammunition is stored at the armory - not at home. And without ammunition I would think killing someone with a gun is much more difficult.

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