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I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

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Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#161

Post by marknutter »

eropple wrote: post #151
marknutter wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as That's a ridiculous straw man. I don't think anyone in this thread would agree with that statement. > Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is…

As a male, I do not fear being date-raped, I do not fear being accosted walking alone at night, I do not worry that I am paid less because of my gender, I do not fear that my career path will be harmed because an employer is afraid to hire or promote me because I may choose to have children. And a white person in the United States, I am likely to get more callbacks on a resume for a job. I can walk down the street, a…

So if I say statistically and sociologically speaking, black people have lower IQ's, have a more destructive culture of crime, and are more likely to abuse social programs than white people am I somehow protected from scrutiny? Is my generalization any more offensive than yours, really?

> It's about systems, and it is largely accepted that the rush to personalize situations is done by people in a position of relative privilege.

It's about systems and it's about individuals. People who fight for social justice personalize situations all the time. When statistics come out that don't favor their agenda, they shift the focus to the personal level as well. And they should, because we need to all remember that it is about the individual. As much as sociologist and statisticians would like to believe, we do not all fit neatly into well defined groups. It's insulting to insinuate that we do.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#162

Post by marknutter »

rdtsc wrote: post #150
marknutter wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as That's a ridiculous straw man. I don't think anyone in this thread would agree with that statement. > Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is…

> "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as Nobody here does but it is a common attitude, I have heard it many times from conservative acquaintances and family. This phenomenon was epitomized by the "welfare queen" PR term in US in the 90s and early 2000s, and to some extend I believe "unwed single mother" in UK. It as a figure put up a pr…

> It as a figure put up a prototype of how poor people are just waiting for handouts, are lazy and if they just work harder would be successful business owners.

Kind of like how the social justice crowd has put up a prototype of rich white people as being privileged, uncaring, willfully ignorant, and unsympathetic. It kind of sucks to be generalized, doesn't it?

> > to "check their privilege" I didn't say that. Is that a strawman I see ;-) ?

Good Lord, pedant much? I knew when I wrote that phrase I should have worded it differently but I gave you too much credit. You know what I mean – I'm talking about people, like you, who like to remind other people of their privilege.

> I didn't direct my comments at anyone in particular. I responded to a comment because they brought an interesting point my mind but I didn't accuse or insult them.

That's exactly my point. You directed your comments at large swaths of people whom you know nothing about. It's like me saying "poor minorities are just lazy".

> > If you'll pardon my French, "you don't fucking know me". Alrighty then...

Are you struggling with this conversation? I would hope that you understood by "you" I meant anybody who tries to generalize me with statistics, and not "you" rdtsc.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#163

Post by bane »

Twirrim wrote: post #145
bane wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the East Coast, and I've interviewed with a fair number of East Coast and West Coast companies and the West Coast ones were by far the worst. Google and Amazon have been fair to middling, but there's been some that were probably so inept it has to fall under some kind of criminal law somewhere.

Friend of mine got interviewed by a well known company down in the Bellevue area of Washington, for a role managing storage stuff, shortly after moving to the area. They got him in 5 times over a month for interviews with various people, and eventually about 3-4 weeks after the final interview they offered him the job. They seemed very surprised when he laughed and told them they were too late, he'd got work elsewher…

Yeah, lots of the companies seem to operate like engineers aren't in high demand virtually everywhere and that they offer some kind of special je-ne-sais-quoi that will convince qualified people to sit around for months while they make up their mind.

I can say having been on the hiring-side of various companies for a while, most East Coast companies can go from looking at an application to hire inside a couple of weeks if they're slow, inside of a week if they're pretty well put together and can get enough people for interviews. It just simply doesn't take 5 interviews and two months to find somebody -- that's just ineptitude...and those companies' own internal metrics show all the process and hoops don't make much difference in final employee performance.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#164

Post by marknutter »

ohyes wrote: post #156
marknutter wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

34, and I grew up poor but in a moderately wealthy suburb. I had to pay most of my way through college, and when I couldn't find a job with my degree (Physics) I learned how to program and have been making a living off that ever since. I didn't get what I have today because of privilege but you would probably see it differently.

I'm sure you didn't get what you had solely because of privilege. You worked hard. But that entire discussion is irrelevant. I hate it when people quote "privilege" as a way to shut someone up. It has become such a dirty word. The point for me is recognizing that yes, I have been fortunate in my circumstances (solely by being born in a first world country in this century I was ahead of the majority of people born eve…

> The point for me is recognizing that yes, I have been fortunate in my circumstances (solely by being born in a first world country in this century I was ahead of the majority of people born ever).

Even this concept bothers me. Why do we in the "first world" (God, even the term sounds pretentious) assume we are living the height of human existence? If you live in the US, you're likely working longer hours than you would in almost any other country, and your fulfillment in life likely comes from acquiring, storing, and maintaining stuff. Contrast that with, say, rural Mongolians, who live off the land, have much tighter communities, and are largely oblivious to the problems we in high society have. Assuming that the rest of the world wants to live this insane existence we do is more offensive than not recognizing one's privilege, IMO.

> If I could extend that same privilege to others I would in a heartbeat because I think it would be both morally right and for the greater good.

Again, one man's privilege is another man's hell. I would, for instance, not want to be a trust fund baby, living a life where nothing is a challenge, where I can never truly know if someone's just being my friend or love interest because of my money, and where the rest of society stereotypes me because of a situation I had no choice about being born into. I'd rather be a rural Mongolian, TBH.

I also think it's complete folly to assume that working in tech is the height of society. It's not, which is why a lot of people don't pursue it. It's fucking tedious most of the time, you sit with your neck craned over a computer for 8+ hours a day and develop bizarre RSS conditions and nothing you build is actually material. It's not like the trades where you move your body during the day and can actually step back and see what you built or helped build.

I am definitely not one of these people that things we should teach everyone how to code. Programming is lucrative right now because not many people have a passion or a tolerance for it but the need for it is increasing. It's that simple. It's not about privilege, or race, or sex, or anything. It's just another tedious, painful thing that needs to be done that some people have a higher tolerance for than others (usually white, nerdy, socially-awkward people).

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#165

Post by djtriptych »

bsg75 wrote: post #63
djtriptych wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to soften this viewpoint a bit. I had similarly bungled experiences with both Facebook and Google (eventually got offers from both, accepted at Google). Missed phone calls, mistaken identity, inter-office communication problems and more. It's not a fair reflection of the company at large; recruiting is very often a shit show for all kinds of reasons.

It is fair however to keep in mind that employees, or potential recruits, who forget to keep meeting times or fail to show up could have a very different outcome.

I'd say as a candidate you're on the hook as well to push the process forward.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#166

Post by manigandham »

rdtsc wrote: post #44
lucisferre wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> free time What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere?

> What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere? I think that's what the OP called the "privilege". Those that have it, don't see why others can't do the same. It comes from having a completely different world view and priorities. That's why it is common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would b…

There are also people who do have very tough situations and still get things done. My dad did this when he first immigrated to this country working 14 hours a day in a factory for $4/hour while learning computer engineering.

There's always a way and all this talk about "privilege" just simplifies the lives and struggles of people into some silly political game. It's just not that black and white.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#167

Post by Practicality »

karambahh wrote: post #80
Practicality wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my previous jobs we automated a warehouse using a crane and mini-RVs that drove around a picked up pallets. The whole warehouse only* required a couple of fork truck drivers to load the trucks and that was only because of legal restrictions on loading trucks with an automated conveyor. * It also required 2-3 just out of high-school "technicians" making about $15/hour who oversaw the whole operation as well as…

I can see how you did if the picked products were of similar weight/size and stored in cardboard packaging, but did it also work for "flexible" items such as clothing or for instance a blanket packed into plastic? AFAIK picking is very hard to automate because it's very hard to match the dexterity and eye-hands coordination of a human being. [edit: grammar]

They had to be standardized, so this only worked for particular products. You can start with a sorting system that supplies different weights and textures to different systems.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#168

Post by kamaal »

Twirrim wrote: post #145
bane wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the East Coast, and I've interviewed with a fair number of East Coast and West Coast companies and the West Coast ones were by far the worst. Google and Amazon have been fair to middling, but there's been some that were probably so inept it has to fall under some kind of criminal law somewhere.

Friend of mine got interviewed by a well known company down in the Bellevue area of Washington, for a role managing storage stuff, shortly after moving to the area. They got him in 5 times over a month for interviews with various people, and eventually about 3-4 weeks after the final interview they offered him the job. They seemed very surprised when he laughed and told them they were too late, he'd got work elsewher…

As a general rule you are better off not working at such places, because people there are generally so full of themselves.

Growth, promotions, raises and other perks will come in a trickle unless you are a member of some political cartel in the company, because every one thinks they are special.

Recruiting is worse of course, because they don't generally grant easy access to their elite club.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#169

Post by kamaal »

kalleboo wrote: post #62
marknutter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

I'm a pretty proficient programmer, but I would never have gotten there if I had to study after working 12.5 hour shifts all week - I'd still be working in the warehouse today. That's why I recognize I had privilege growing up in a country with paid-for higher education and parents who encouraged me to attend. I also support such social measures for others as I feel it would be economically inefficient if I was still…

>>I would never have gotten there if I had to study after working 12.5 hour shifts all week

A lot of people 'get there' by doing precisely this. Because to many people this doesn't look like a problem, it would look more like an 'opportunity'. You have no clue how hard people will try(work) when failure is not an option.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#170

Post by mentat »

mahyarm wrote: post #143
mentat wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. I did misread this. Still I'm not sure this is true. Is it really the case that only in computers you're not required to have formal education to get a well placed job? That seems unlikely. I don't feel that I have enough information either way from my own experience (in computers, without a formal education in it and know…

That is why I said 'almost', not 'only'. I'm not personally aware of anything else like this other than starting your own business. And starting a successful business is far harder than teaching yourself programming. Computers are not dangerous of themselves, they are dangerous when you rely on them. When you screw up software it's really easy to hit the reset button at no cost. When you screw up fixing a device, it…

I've been working on software systems for a couple decades where you can't just hit the reset button because they matter so I'm not particularly incline to agree on that point. The vocational school system still exists for the trades I believe though you hardly hear about it now that for profits have taken over the "non-classical" education spaces.
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