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American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

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Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#161

Post by leroy_masochist »

deciplex wrote: post #144
leroy_masochist wrote: post #115

I agreed with pretty much everything until the following: "Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex. A father could admit to desiring his wife without seeming like a distracted parent, but society is not as willing to cut Ms. Waldman that same slack. It is unseemly for a m…

I'm not sure your observation is at odds with the assertion made here. We could sexualize mothers while keeping the taboo on mothers themselves being sexual i.e. desiring sex. In fact, the sexualization could even feed off that very taboo.

I see what you're saying in theory, but by my reading of the article it's clear that the authors are saying that societal expectations around mothering are effectively inhibiting women from existing both as mothers and as sexual beings -- and this assertion does not square with what I observe in the real world.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#162

Post by nommm-nommm »

javajosh wrote: post #135
nommm-nommm wrote: post #121

Call me callous but I always thought one of the most important lessons a child should learn is "its not all about you." I am so amazed when I see parents nowadays devoting their entire life to making sure their children are spared of any tiny little inconvenience. These children will be very poorly adjusted and these parents are rarely happy.

What if you were to engineer a situation with your kids where you a) teach them how to do something useful, and then b) put them in a situation where that useful thing needs to be done. If they don't take the cue, no problem. If they miss it, maybe have a 3rd party (like an aunt or an uncle) pitch in. Then maybe have that 3rd party ask the child if they know how to do that thing - and get the kid to get in the habit…

I reread this a few times and I'm not really sure what it has to do with what I wrote.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#163

Post by Someone »

tinalumfoil wrote: post #138
Vexs wrote: post #3

While I think his insights on how we treat our children is amazingly insightful, and I love how it's described as a religion (the point that children are our sacred cows is very good in particular) his attempt to relate it to marriages seems shoehorned at best. There's a lot of problems with the way we treat children, but I think it's relation to marriage is the least of our issues. But seriously, the whole "children…

I don't think he's being insightful at all. All his observations seem to be shallow and his conclusions are weak. > parenthood became a religion in America...Nothing in life is allowed to be more important than our children...a human achieves its peak value at birth and declines thereafter Most Americans tend to believe their children come first. This isn't a religion, it's an evolutionary instinct. A species can't c…

"If I dump a 2-year-old on the street, they'll be roadkill within the hour. Caring more about children isn't any more unique to this time period than it is to this species."

OTOH, evolutionary, if you die, that 2-year-old and its siblings do not have a bright future, either. If that 2-year-old dies its sibling may survive. Even if it is your only child, you may be able to bring another child into the world.

If you model this, I expect that you can make either strategy optimal, depending on small twists to your model's parameters (increase family ties a bit, and chances are that 2 year old will get adopted; increase child mortality, and that 2-year-old may only count as half a 10-year-old in terms of expected number of surviving children, even if its parents stay around to care for it)

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#164

Post by Lawtonfogle »

engi_nerd wrote: post #143
disantlor wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the perverse fairness of giving equal time to clearly unequal opinions (/science/facts/etc) worse discourse than political correctness? Of course PC can and does wade into over sensitivity but it also includes the idea that you should err on the side of safety when using words that can be terribly hurtful to some people. It's not our place to decide that it's not in fact hurtful.

Yes, the idea that we must be fair to all opinions, no matter how silly, is also a bad one.

But it must be countered by the fact that some valid opinions of today were the silliest of the past.

Consider how many things we accept as valid today (say opinions related to equality) were once almost blasphemous to mention. It would be arrogant of us to assume we are not making similar mistakes.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#165

Post by jpfed »

eximius wrote: post #81

Interestingly, I've asked many of my female friends, including my last few girlfriends, given the hypothetical choice of saving their husband or their child, who would they save? Almost all of them said their children. Ask the men, however, and it is almost always the wife. And none of these folks were married or had kids yet. It is something ingrained from before that occurs.

Dad here. I would save the kids, for several reasons:

1. They have more life-years ahead of them. 2. If I saved my wife, she would hate the choice I made and be plagued by survivor guilt or resentment. It's not clear that my marriage would survive this. But the kids are young enough that they would probably accept the choice, to the extent that they could comprehend it.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#166

Post by engi_nerd »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #164
engi_nerd wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the idea that we must be fair to all opinions, no matter how silly, is also a bad one.

But it must be countered by the fact that some valid opinions of today were the silliest of the past. Consider how many things we accept as valid today (say opinions related to equality) were once almost blasphemous to mention. It would be arrogant of us to assume we are not making similar mistakes.

You raise a good point that I hadn't thought about.

I suppose the lesson is to keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#167

Post by cesarbs »

such_a_casual wrote: post #80
cesarbs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but two-earner households are often also more economically fragile Can you elaborate on that? It doesn't make sense to me. When we were on a single income in my family, it felt a lot more fragile than now that we have two incomes.

It's explained in the book I mentioned. You would also need to educate yourself on personal finance by reading some other books to get a more holistic picture (The Millionaire Next Door is a good place to start). There's three things you need to understand about personal finance: 1. The first is that shit happens and most people don't plan for it (because they haven't been educated on personal finance). Most resource…

I guess we're covered then :) We' re still working on building an emergency fund the size we want, but it's already there to cover us for at least half a year.

Right now we pay more than what we'd like on rent, but next year we'll move to a cheaper place.

We're saving for a large down payment for when it comes time to buy a home. Also, we'll get a mortgage as if only one of us were working, we have already agreed on that. And we're planning on moving to a state with a low cost of living when that time comes.

So in our case, two incomes is pretty solid.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#168

Post by cesarbs »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #83
cesarbs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but two-earner households are often also more economically fragile Can you elaborate on that? It doesn't make sense to me. When we were on a single income in my family, it felt a lot more fragile than now that we have two incomes.

Two income households are usually households that depend on two incomes. In other words instead of basing your standard of living on one income you base your standard of living on two. So both incomes are required to pay your rent/mortgage/water bill/insurance/car payments/etc. It is more fragile because 1) it encourages living well beyond your means and 2) the odds of job loss/income reduction is now doubled and the…

Thanks, I guess I should have deduced that myself. In my case both my wife and I are software engineers making really good salaries, so we definitely don't need both of us to be working. We don't even do it on purpose but looking at our lifestyle it is definitely on a level that could be sustained with only one of our salaries :)

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#169

Post by Lawtonfogle »

engi_nerd wrote: post #166
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it must be countered by the fact that some valid opinions of today were the silliest of the past. Consider how many things we accept as valid today (say opinions related to equality) were once almost blasphemous to mention. It would be arrogant of us to assume we are not making similar mistakes.

You raise a good point that I hadn't thought about. I suppose the lesson is to keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out.

I'm just worried that among progressives of the past, many open minded positions of today would have been 'opening your mind til your brain fell out'. Consider what people would've said a century ago if you brought up homosexuals marrying or transsexual acceptance. What today seems a strange to use as those concepts seemed a to progressives a century ago?

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#170

Post by engi_nerd »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #169
engi_nerd wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise a good point that I hadn't thought about. I suppose the lesson is to keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out.

I'm just worried that among progressives of the past, many open minded positions of today would have been 'opening your mind til your brain fell out'. Consider what people would've said a century ago if you brought up homosexuals marrying or transsexual acceptance. What today seems a strange to use as those concepts seemed a to progressives a century ago?

Any ideas for how we can guard against this?
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