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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#151

Post by notNow »

shenanigoat wrote: post #148
notNow wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like the taste of beer or alcoholic beverages for the matter is fine with me and I'd like to clarify that I don't have prob either with the religious cop-out but you'll have to forgive me if I get you under more scrutiny just to ensure that you fit well within the inclusive environment because from my experience religious people esp. from certain backgrounds (let's stick with PC for now not to inflame th…

Stop down voting this guy so much. I can barely read the comments they are so faint. :) I'm actually glad he's saying this stuff. It just proves there are plenty of narrow minded people out there and, unfortunately, many of them are in hiring roles. Edit: I'm not actually glad he's saying these things. It's pretty sad.

Apparently I am not "culturally fit" for this "inclusive and tolerant" community or an HN material in general which should be a good news in and of itself if you ask me.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#152

Post by raindev »

ta92929 wrote: post #45
raindev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the issue is as simple as that. Here is more on the topic: https://subfictional.com/2012/07/02/language-matters-stop-us...

The strangest part of that article is this: I understand how ingrained the “guys” habit might be for some of you. It was for me. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on oc- casion. So even the author herself used the word with completely gender neutral intent, but then she insists that others can't. It's like she's looking for reasons to be offended.

What the author is trying to say is that this label is deeply ingrained into our cultural stereotypes but we should strive try to change the situation.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#153

Post by notNow »

johngalt wrote: post #144
notNow wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't want to hire religious fanatics in where I work or bigot means that I don't share the same opinion as yours?

You define someone who doesn't drink beer as a religious fanatic? How about someone who doesn't eat pork? How do you not see this as wrong? It is the attitude you claim to despise, that you are currently exhibiting.

Again I have no prob with teetotalers whether for medical, social or religious reasons.

The only prob I have is how to screen candidates to root out the fanatics and fundamentals from the moderate and regular conservative folks. Unfortunately, these two subgroups share common traits or values and abstaining from drinking is one of them.

What I said was simply that I'd need to extract more info from the candidate to make sure I'm making the right decision.

It is not about anti-religion or religious folks but a policy not to hire crazy and unstable people. I don't want female employees to feel uncomfortable at the company because of a new hire because he might have some objections to how women should dress or debating whether people should eat or have a cup of coffee during Ramadan.

This sort of stuff is unacceptable and I might say that it is not a controversial point for many people. I experienced first hand how some fanatics could drive people out of an org because of their conduct and social antics & crusades. The org lost very competent people to the competition because a fanatic thought he was on some holy mission to transform the workplace into a utopia just to feel good about himself. Needless to say, the place turned into a living hell and he also was in a position of authority to do that and we couldn't do anything about it before it was too late.

So sorry if my opinion shattered your idealistic view of the world around us but it's way way better for me not to hire a "rockstar" fanatic and see people leave in drove because of his social toxicity and to stick to normal and skilled people who would fit and blend well with the group without friction and uneasiness.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#154

Post by wolfgke »

MarcusVorenus wrote: post #150
joesmo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of Muslims who could help an atheist non profit by maintaining their professionalism. Likewise for your other examples. By assuming that they will let their beliefs sabotage their work, you're judging a whole group by the potential actions of zero or more people. That's just discrimination against people with these various beliefs without proof. By this line of reasoning you could sa…

They can be professional all they like but if they only have money as a motivator to work at a place they hate then they'll just be poor performers. They won't have the energy to do more than the bare minimum. Motivation is just not something that you can command at will.

> if they only have money as a motivator to work at a place they hate then they'll just be poor performers. They won't have the energy to do more than the bare minimum.

Source?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#155

Post by tajen »

firstworldman wrote: post #137
informatimago wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distinguishes you from a robot, WHEN? After the 80 hours a week spent at work, 56 hours a week spent sleeping (going to work while sleep deprived is like going to work drunk, so they do expect you to sleep!), 3.5 hours a week spent showering (and they do expect you to come to work clean, wonder why), 10 hours a week spent in commuting to work, 7 hours a week spent on feeding yourself (and they do expect you to eat so…

If these are honestly the amounts of time you devote to these things, then you need to make a big change. If you're working 80 hours per week and can't afford to live closer to work, you're working the wrong job. Unless you're a founder (and really, even then it should be temporary), 80 hours is an unreasonable expectation from management. Showering shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. Groceries shouldn't take 4 hour…

I would never hire someone who overworks. There's too much risk of bad quality work in the short term, upset/grumbling workers in the mid term and depressive people in the long term. Brains need refreshment and creativity needs a full life outside work. When you build your company, your own ecosystem is a healthy as the lifestyle of the people who make it.

But again, this is valid in Australia and France. I know that people work too much in SF/US.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#156

Post by kator »

jrs235 wrote: post #85
kator wrote: post #37

I hire for Attitude and Aptitude. If you have a crappy attitude I can't do anything to help you there. If you have the aptitude and your attitude is positive, can-do, willing to learn, we can teach you anything you need to know or you can learn it on the job. I too worry that "Cultural Fit" is becoming the new "don't like them" excuse of the day. I try hard to hire people who think about problems differently than mys…

I would love to get your input on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760203

Interview them all and get as many people on your team as possible to talk to them.

At the end of the day the most important decision a company can make is about hiring.

The second is about firing.

Do the math, which one has a better ROI?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#157

Post by [deleted] »

raindev wrote: post #152
ta92929 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strangest part of that article is this: I understand how ingrained the “guys” habit might be for some of you. It was for me. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on oc- casion. So even the author herself used the word with completely gender neutral intent, but then she insists that others can't. It's like she's looking for reasons to be offended.

What the author is trying to say is that this label is deeply ingrained into our cultural stereotypes but we should strive try to change the situation.

[deleted]

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#158

Post by [deleted] »

grkvlt wrote: post #140
ta92929 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strangest part of that article is this: I understand how ingrained the “guys” habit might be for some of you. It was for me. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on oc- casion. So even the author herself used the word with completely gender neutral intent, but then she insists that others can't. It's like she's looking for reasons to be offended.

Not really. She is conciously trying not to use it, and admits to accidentally slipping up when she reverts to unconciously choosing biased terms. She seems to want others to do the same thing, and think about the words they are using, and their potential impact, which is a Good Thing generally.

[deleted]

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#159

Post by clebio »

notNow wrote: post #153
johngalt wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You define someone who doesn't drink beer as a religious fanatic? How about someone who doesn't eat pork? How do you not see this as wrong? It is the attitude you claim to despise, that you are currently exhibiting.

Again I have no prob with teetotalers whether for medical, social or religious reasons. The only prob I have is how to screen candidates to root out the fanatics and fundamentals from the moderate and regular conservative folks. Unfortunately, these two subgroups share common traits or values and abstaining from drinking is one of them. What I said was simply that I'd need to extract more info from the candidate to m…

I almost think you're trolling. But just in case you're not....

I wouldn't even worry about "fundamentailists" or "fanatics" in interviews because they _would not be there_. They'd be on some private commune that generates its own power from a water wheel and everyone where's linen, and no bare legs or arms. Honestly. Religious or ethical people that show up to a company office, on-schedule, and can answer interview questions are, basically by-definition, not fundamentalists or fanatics.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#160

Post by clebio »

culturalshit wrote: post #69
kator wrote: post #37

I hire for Attitude and Aptitude. If you have a crappy attitude I can't do anything to help you there. If you have the aptitude and your attitude is positive, can-do, willing to learn, we can teach you anything you need to know or you can learn it on the job. I too worry that "Cultural Fit" is becoming the new "don't like them" excuse of the day. I try hard to hire people who think about problems differently than mys…

Cultural Fit is, in fact, routinely used to make discriminatory choices that aren't rooted in anything related to what it takes to succeed. Worse, people like Peter Thiel and Max Levchin celebrate this and encourage other startups not to hire women and not to hire men who are even slightly different than themselves. These are influential people and they're purposefully using their influence to make the world a dramat…

I'd possibly agree with you, but, can you give references for the allegations about Thiel and Levchin?
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