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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#81

Post by Retra »

ionforce wrote: post #57
ta92929 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strangest part of that article is this: I understand how ingrained the “guys” habit might be for some of you. It was for me. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on oc- casion. So even the author herself used the word with completely gender neutral intent, but then she insists that others can't. It's like she's looking for reasons to be offended.

A lot of people are looking to be offended these days.

That's been true since forever. It's just now that people are offended about things like word choice rather than race, gender, religion, or parents, occupation, etc.

Either way, that's no excuse to stop thinking about things.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#82

Post by lambda »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

Wow.

I... don't even know what to say about that.

I have known many people to not drink beer. Some of them do so because they just don't like the taste. Some don't because they are former alcoholics. Some are alcohol intolerant; others have trouble with the carbonation. Some don't for their own personal moral or health reasons. Some don't for religious reasons.

I have never had one of those people "impose or restrict" my rights or "make me feel very uncomfortable" in the workplace or any other venue I shared with them.

This exact attitude, assuming that someone who doesn't drink beer will be a detriment in the workplace, is the kind of thing this article is refuting; that if you use enough of these "culture fit" markers, then you will simply wind up picking a team with very little real diversity, which could cause real problems in the long run.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#83

Post by IshKebab »

skrebbel wrote: post #52
ovi256 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about a hobby as if you still do it, in order to get the job and provide for your family, is not a lie anyone sane would say matters. Next time, don't sweat it.

Seriously? You'd take a job that requires that you lie about your personal life?

No job requires you to lie about your personal life, but if they're willing to give you credit for a lie that doesn't matter at all - why the hell not?

Although having said that, judging you so much on your "fit" is a pretty big red flag.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#84

Post by Retra »

lordnacho wrote: post #31
EliRivers wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any skill. There are bio-hackers. Lock-hackers. Engine-hackers. Clothing-hackers. On and on and on. The skill has become irrelevant. Just any skill. Attitude and style is now what makes it "hacker".

Must be a changing thing. I've always thought "hacker" without qualifiers meant "person who can code".

It only means that today because so many people idolize hackers and so many people want to hire hackers that everyone just calls themselves hackers as a political move.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#85

Post by jrs235 »

kator wrote: post #37

I hire for Attitude and Aptitude. If you have a crappy attitude I can't do anything to help you there. If you have the aptitude and your attitude is positive, can-do, willing to learn, we can teach you anything you need to know or you can learn it on the job. I too worry that "Cultural Fit" is becoming the new "don't like them" excuse of the day. I try hard to hire people who think about problems differently than mys…

I would love to get your input on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760203

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#86

Post by ceras »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

Wow, this is a surprising response to a pretty normal and mild preference. Would you worry about hiring a Republican in a predominantly Democratic team? What about a Red Sox fan to an NYC-based team?

I've had multiple coworkers who abstain from alcohol for religious reasons - never had a single problem, just like with any other moral/political/racial/etc differences. And if it were a problem, a good manager can deal with a problematic report one way or another - this is on them.

Honestly, I'm just surprised to hear this even crossed someone's mind. It reinforces just how much "cultural fit" matters, sadly.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#87

Post by notNow »

mgkimsal wrote: post #64
notNow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

Not the OP, but I don't drink alcohol in social situations much - typically not as a lunch beverage with team mates - for 1 primary reason: I don't like the taste. I have no moral objections against a glass of beer or wine with a meal, and occasionally will have a glass of wine with a dinner (usually not, because I'm normally driving somewhere as well). I've done the 'go to lunch' during an interview, and beer came u…

If you don't like the taste of beer or alcoholic beverages for the matter is fine with me and I'd like to clarify that I don't have prob either with the religious cop-out but you'll have to forgive me if I get you under more scrutiny just to ensure that you fit well within the inclusive environment because from my experience religious people esp. from certain backgrounds (let's stick with PC for now not to inflame the thread) are difficult to integrate and make our lives harder and we usually up to the ears with work stuff to deal with cultural friction and sensitivity training for new hires.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#88

Post by jschwartzi »

throw_away wrote: post #33
raindev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the issue is as simple as that. Here is more on the topic: https://subfictional.com/2012/07/02/language-matters-stop-us...

Douglas Hofstadter wrote a classic essay on this as well: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

This one is right up there with A Modest Proposal.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#89

Post by hyperpape »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

The guy who sits next to me is quite religiously conservative from what I can tell, and had never had beer until he'd been working at the company for over a year[1], but his conservatism has never caused problems. I think it maybe was explicitly discussed once that I know, when he got into a political discussion with someone at a work event that wasn't on the clock. I don't even think anyone was offended at the time.

Frankly, the obnoxious coworker in this case is me, because he has to listen to me saying "goddamnit"[1] from right next to him all the time.

I wouldn't want someone who would be a dick to people in the office, but if you can be professional regardless of your personal beliefs, that's enough.

[1] At my computer, not at people.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#90

Post by informatimago »

xaybey wrote: post #71
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

I understand not drinking and not playing video games, but saying that you have no hobbies would be pretty weird in an interview. They're just trying to get to know you. Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot.

Distinguishes you from a robot, WHEN?

After the 80 hours a week spent at work, 56 hours a week spent sleeping (going to work while sleep deprived is like going to work drunk, so they do expect you to sleep!), 3.5 hours a week spent showering (and they do expect you to come to work clean, wonder why), 10 hours a week spent in commuting to work, 7 hours a week spent on feeding yourself (and they do expect you to eat so you can work (I can spend weeks without eating, but then I won't be productive)), 4 hours a week to buy the groceries, and 7 hours a week spent on the internet or TV, there remains NO time for any hobby.

So if they want hobbies, they will have to reduce drastically work time.

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