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Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

theguardian.com

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Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#151

Post by cylinder »

sliverstorm wrote: post #94
matthewowen wrote: post #15

The underlying problem behind all of this is that the USA's policy on taxing non-resident citizens is, fundamentally, absurd. As a permanent resident, it's the one thing that gives me pause about applying for citizenship (I know that the same rules apply to me whilst I'm a permanent resident, but I'm concerned about what happens in the future if I decide to leave the USA).

Why is it absurd? Or, from the other angle, why does it exist? (real answers please, not "becuz money-grubbing gub'mint") Considering you get to deduct $100k of your foreign earnings, it's not like they are trying to rake John Doe Expat over the coals.

It's not that simple. If you want to live overseas long term you may end up paying quite a bit in tax, for example on retirement savings and distributions, investing, running a business. These things are all COMPLETE nightmares for a US citizen living abroad, even in a country like Australia.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#152

Post by cylinder »

aroberge wrote: post #57

In Canada, people can put money into a tax-deferred retirement fund (RRSP); the income tax is paid only when the money is withdrawn (sometimes 30 or 40 years later). The US does not recognize the RRSP as deserving of a tax-deferred status, but as a regular savings account. ( https://www.tnvisaexpert.com/articles/how-canadian-rrsps-tax... ) Thus some dual US-Canada citizens suddenly have faced significant tax bills fr…

Same with Australian superannuation.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#153

Post by cylinder »

MCRed wrote: post #88
vonnik wrote: post #33

This type of article appears every few years. Frankly, I don't think the numbers are very impressive, and they seem to be declining. "In 2013, 2,999 Americans renounced their citizenship; in 2014 so far, it’s a little more than 1,500 people." The population of the US in 2012 was about 314 million. So 0.000009% renounced their citizenship...

Except they raised the fees for doing so something like %1,000 in the intervening period. Remember, you don't get to just renounce. You have to petition the government for permission to have a hearing to renounce, and then you have to show up at this hearing -- in an embassy on foreign soil-- and give them reasons to let you renounce. IF you say the wrong thing, they will not let you renounce. The old adage "love it…

Which doesn't make sense at all. I should be able to renounce my citizenship via a simple statement on a public forum, such as a newspaper. If a citizenship is really just verification one has taken a certain oath to a country, why can't the individual invalidate that oath once they no longer respect it?

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#154

Post by opendais »

refurb wrote: post #123
opendais wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is the Republican spin. Do you feel "open source software" is the political enemy of the president? That received the same level of scrutiny along with "progressive". http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-15/irs-sent-same-lette... It was a keyword based list based on types of organization the IRS had the most issues with. The Democrats were hit in 2011. Years before this was an "issue". Oddly enough, the Re…

Wait a second. You claim it's Republican Spin and the evidence you provide is that the IRS targeted three Democratic non-profits?

One of which was stripped of their status. Of the targeted group, less than a third were Republicans. If you bothered to put any effort into researching it you'd turn up the keyword list that includes the keywords.

I'm not sure why I get downvotes because I don't do all the work for people making accusations.

Since you are lazy:

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/04/new-documents-show-t...

http://www.scribd.com/collections/4492912/IRS-Be-On-the-Look...

etc.

Provide evidence it isn't Republican Spin since you two are the ones making the accusations?

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/09/05/senate-report-confirm...

http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/investigations/rep...

This wasn't some witch hunt. Everything with potential political leanings as well as a number of other non-political categories were flagged. This was because of Citizens United and the fact people were pushing the boundaries.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#155

Post by abruzzi »

Frozenlock wrote: post #14
abruzzi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly, the law is aimed at banks to disclose assets of americans with more than 50k in savings, the banks are overreacting and not handling accounts of any americans as a result. So I wouldn't say the law targets the average Joe (I know very few average Joes with $5k in savings, let alone $50k), but the banks are. Perhaps its a calculated move to get people upset with the IRS/Treasury to create ba…

"the banks are overreacting" Really? The USA is considering everything as under its jurisdiction, but the banks are overreacting?

I'm not using the word "overreacting" as a pejorative, but as a simple descriptive. The "overreaction" is simply doing more than the law requires of them. In this case, not taking americans as customers. The law does not require that of them, but they see it as too great a risk to their business.

I would also say that if the IRS is able to enforce their rules without war planes, then it is technically within their jurisdiction. The jurisdiction comes from a) legal jurisdiction within the USA and b) treaties that allow them to enforce laws beyond the USA.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#156

Post by opendais »

vorg wrote: post #134
opendais wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because focusing on the IRS ignores the fact Congress can alter the IRS's mandate at-will to remove any of the policies of the IRS that is considered "bad". The President and his appointees can alter things within the mandate. Get angry at the people that make policy, not the people that enforce it. Sure, the IRS could be nicer. However, as someone who had to handle a policy enforcement role from time to time...I kno…

> "Get angry at the people that make policy, not the people that enforce it." Ever heard of "Good cop, bad cop" ?

That isn't relevant. If you don't fix the policies, they just hire replacements.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#157

Post by opendais »

beeworker wrote: post #135
opendais wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because focusing on the IRS ignores the fact Congress can alter the IRS's mandate at-will to remove any of the policies of the IRS that is considered "bad". The President and his appointees can alter things within the mandate. Get angry at the people that make policy, not the people that enforce it. Sure, the IRS could be nicer. However, as someone who had to handle a policy enforcement role from time to time...I kno…

Getting enforcers to quit or be fired is the general idea of focusing in on them -- if there are no enforcers then nothing is enforced regardless what the policy makers say. It's another solution to solving the problem of bad policy besides the one of changing the policy. One could argue its results. The strategy seems to make a lot of TSA employees feel bad, so the turnover there is quite high, but enough people nee…

ROFLMAO.

If you don't fix the policies, they just hire replacements. You even admit it is how it works.

"The strategy seems to make a lot of TSA employees feel bad, so the turnover there is quite high, but enough people need any job just to make ends meet that the overall effect to their workforce isn't very much."

You also didn't think about the logical result of pushing out the people who would feel bad about bad policies. It means you leave only the desperate & the bad people running the organization. Well done! You've removed everyone with a hint of moral fiber and/or soul from the enforcement role. And then you'll be surprised when no decent person is there to help you when there is an issue.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#158

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ggambetta wrote: post #148
dreamweapon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. Even so, I've always wanted to go there, for some reason. We'll see what happens.

For some tourism, sure, go for it! Summer is best, besides Montevideo you should check out Punta del Este and Colonia.

By "summer", I presume you mean summer below the equator - December, January, February.

(When Australia hosted the Summer Olympics, it was actually winter in Australia.)

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#159

Post by areyousure »

Sambdala wrote: post #105
clamprecht wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your comments except the money laundering part. For money laundering, doesn't the source of the proceeds have to be illegal?

No. It used to be an "ancillary" crime, but now it's simply illegal to move money while looking like you're trying to hide the source.

I believe you, actually, but can you provide a source? Thanks.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#160

Post by curun1r »

sitharus wrote: post #96
sergiotapia wrote: post #13

I'm going through this IRS bullshit -personally-. I was under the impression filing taxes was simple, hell why would they make it complicated. But nope, if you live abroad it's twice as complicated for an ex-pat. Worse still, if you're self-employed (like I am) and a freelancer it's ever more paperwork and edge cases to be careful of. And the cherry on top! Software engineers have a whole different set of tax rules.…

As someone quite familiar with the situation, you're better off saying "Fuck you Intuit". They spend millions of dollars a year lobbying to keep the tax system complex. You can start here: http://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-... For what it's worth, as a dual citizen of UK and New Zealand I've only filed a tax return twice in my life - when I was a contractor.

> They spend millions of dollars a year lobbying to keep the tax system complex.

Not exactly. It wouldn't cost as much as Intuit spends on lobbying to keep the system overly complex. But Intuit doesn't want the tax code to get so complex that people are forced to seek outside help (yes, they make money from Lacerte and the rest of their Pro Tax division, but not as much as they do from TurboTax). And yet they don't want it to be so simple that you can do it on your own. They're seeking that perfect middle where you feel comfortable using software to prepare your taxes. It's a tenuous balance to maintain and why they have to spend so much on lobbying.

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