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My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

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Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#151

Post by ht_th »

srs0001 wrote: post #46

Oddly, I was thinking about this exact topic this weekend. When I joined my current company, I signed a document saying whatever I build belongs to the company. I'd like to go back and have this reversed. What is the best course of action? Write a letter saying that what I create on my own time is my property, and have the CEO or HR Manager sign it?

I always wondered: does your contract really state "whatever you build", or does it state something like "whatever you build in the same (specific) domain you're working on for the company"? Let us say, you work for a cookie-cutter company, designing new cookie-cutters. I understand that, if you would invent in your spare time a doughnut cutter, the company could argue that you did so using company's resources (namely you working on cookie cutters, learning all about cutting cookies, designing cookie-cutters, and related stuff). Now, if you would invent in your spare time a flying moped, would that belong to the company as well? And if you'd write a novel about Romance on Monkey Island? That would seem odd to me as it has no bearance on your work for the cookie-cutter company, not seems your experiences at that company transfer to these domains you work on in your spare time (and vice versa, for that matter).

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#152

Post by TheLoneWolfling »

JAnderton wrote: post #93
zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

Funny, I had the same conversation yesterday. A specific non-compete to say you can't work on the precise product segment (say, if you're at Facebook, you can't work on Google+ directly or something more specific like a segment your company is developing a patent in) for "x months" seems something that you can sign off if market segment is such. If I pay for a car, I'm paying for a product. If I pay someone to clean…

Question: is such a clause enforced in laboratories?

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#153

Post by nraynaud »

kookiekrak wrote: post #117
cynicalkane wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had a written promise, could you sue?

Would you work for an employer that you had to sue to force them to allow you to work there?

yeah, we have this possibility in France, and I wouldn't feel confortable. I guess most of the times people asks for money and leave instead of asking to be (re-)integrated.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#155

Post by coldtea »

pekk wrote: post #81
wyager wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone has the will... to do such a thing. This may just be crotchety old man talk, but sometimes I wonder if the extremely protective child-rearing (particularly in schools) that seems to be abundant today will make future adults particularly susceptible to this kind of bullying. If you never have to deal with this kind of social stress as a child, how can you possibly deal with it as an adult? Perhaps gettin…

Being humiliated and beaten as a child with no control over the situation is not "training" for anything. It's abundantly clear that you did not experience that and have no idea what it is like for a child. Let's hope as a crotchety old man that nobody ever decides to show you what it's like when you're stuck in a nursing home where no one believes or cares to help you because of some stupid reason like that it shoul…

>Being humiliated and beaten as a child with no control over the situation is not "training" for anything. It's abundantly clear that you did not experience that and have no idea what it is like for a child.

I disagree. Most kids have experienced that, and in older times quite more than today with over-protection.

Unless we're talking of extreme situations (which we were not), it helps to build defenses against these kind of things and be more vigilant and aware of other's tactics.

Some kind of "toughening" kids up with adverse situation (as opposed to over-protecting them) has been part of human culture for milenia, from Sparta to Native American tribes.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#156

Post by Unosolo »

On the topic of Restraint of trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraint_of_trade) clause which some companies insist on: in very few cases a company will take a former employee to court over a breach of such clause and then the company is still likely to lose the case unless the restriction was narrow, specific, reasonable. Usually there also need to be consideration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration) for giving up some of the freedom of trade.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#157

Post by judk »

CeramicTeapot wrote: post #104
ChuckMcM wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Google's contract they also stipulate that if you use any of your own stuff in your job at Google you grant Google a perpetual worldwide license to use, modify, and sublicense that material without any compensation to you. Its sort of like 'copyleft' except it sucks into Google anything you touch, and use at least once at work. And always be dubious when the company lawyer says, "Well that is what it says but that…

That is a verbal amendment to your employment contract, and as long as you do not sign an additional contract that somehow says "No, this actually means this" feel free to fuck shit up in court. That is a breach of contract and the company will be liable for damages (if any) and at least be required to give up any assumed license. Verbal employment contracts are enforceable in in all 50 states.

This is the difference between theory and practice.

Yes, if A and B walk into court and say that the verbal contract exists, it is enforceable. But in the common case, A will deny that the contract existed (or disagree on the terms) AMD without any evidence, the contract is lost.

Now if there is evidence (both sides had taken specific actions obviously in accordance with the verbal contrac, that they otherwise would have no reason to do), ther might be a case. But really, without evidence, the abstract rule will not connecg to concrete instances. Get evidence for everything.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#158

Post by judk »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #144
pzxc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely 100% false and a good example of why you shouldn't take legal advice from the internet. When you have a written contract, any and all verbal contracts or amendments mean absolutely nothing. It's called the "four corners doctrine" and is a pretty universal judicial practice. Written contracts always, ALWAYS supersede any verbal agreements: with a written contract in hand, any mentions of oral discus…

I can't really believe this - if both parties agreed an alternate contract was made orally then the court would effectively rule against both parties in favour of supporting a knowingly false contract? FWIW the Wikipedia definition, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_%28law%29 , contrasts sharply with your use and doesn't really seem to speak at all to overwriting of terms by further contracts.

Ah but in practice, they won't agree. One aide will be motivated to claim the oral contract did not exist.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#159

Post by judk »

nraynaud wrote: post #62
gkoberger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike it (and most forward-thinking companies wouldn't risk scaring off people who are the type that work on their own time), however I can see the reasons. How do they know you did it at home, not during work hours? How do they know it didn't affect your work? If you're salaried, there aren't set start/stop times. How do they know they weren't paying you at the time you came up with the idea, or thought through…

Maybe your boss is paid to have some clues about how you spend your time at work? Concerning the property of the tooling: if I bring my personal stapler to work, it's enough to taint everything I staple as my own property? how do we decide the property of the company paper I stapled with my staples? You can say it's reputed being the company property because you're on work time in company premises, but the whole prin…

Courts don't get excited about reductio ad abusurbdum. Their job is to balance competing forces in real world disputes that require a compromise.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#160

Post by judk »

monochr wrote: post #18
drhayes9 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, IANAL. I also don't like those kinds of employment clauses. The way I understand it those clauses are written to prevent the kind of situation where you have a problem at work, can't solve it, go home, solve it, then offer to license it to your employer the following day for a reasonable charge.

And why is that unreasonable? If I did it on my own time and my own resources they should pay for it. Jobs aren't slave contracts where a company gets to own everything about me. And if an employ doesn't do any work at work and just does this sort of thing: fire them, then hire them as a consultant. The business just lost most of the tax burden of supporting an employee, e.g. pay roll taxes, insurance, etc. And the e…

Slaves aren't paid market wages for their work and free to leave at any time.

When someone invests in your creativity, they are entitled to the agreed returns. You are free to find funding on other terms elsewhere.

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