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Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

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Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the popular strawman, not what (most) feminists believe. Feminism* teaches that women (and men) should be allowed to do whatever they want, whether that's stay home with the kids or run a corporation; as opposed to "traditional" values that dictate strictly gender-segregated life paths. Yes, I'm sure you can find feminists who think that blah blah blah whatever. Every group, movement, and party on Earth has fr…

When radical feminists start deliberately violating the free assembly and speech rights of other groups, what should the response of the majority feminists be?

To tell them to fuck off obviously. Can you point to specific instances of that happening?

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#152
post #125
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those of you who downgrade my comment should put that PC stuff aside, and consider reading about the evolution of sexuality. Such as "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" by Matt Ridley, and "The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature" by Geoffrey Miller. All your wishful thinking will never make women and men the same.

You weren't downvoted for making the tautological observation that men and women aren't the same but for attempting to use science as a cloak for shoddy reasoning: There's no question that things like hormone levels are likely to have some sort of effect but your response begs huge questions such as how low-level differences affect incredibly complex higher-level processes like cognition, how much a skill like progra…

Maybe you should educate yourself in general evolution, and evolution of sex in particular, and then figure out the obvious: men and women gravitate toward different things. Women are (generally) not discriminated in tech, they just don't gravitate towards it. They are not discriminated on HN, or in Trekkie conventions, they are practically not present there. They don't play computer games, they do social networking.

And when in evolution, we say "they", we don't mean any individual members, we mean proportions. So women in general don't do some things that interest men.

Now, if you guys want society to spend effort and probably money to push women in some roles that don't interest them (or vice versa for men), so be it. My opinion is that doing this will not make women/men any happier or even will not be good for society...

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#153
post #2

It is my sincere hope that this understanding becomes pervasive in society, such that the inane social movements based upon naught but angry emotional mob mentality become part of history. As it stands, young boys are medicated with psychiatric drugs for beings boys, and this is deemed acceptable by society. Boys are failing at every step in public institutions, with higher drop out rates at all levels of schooling.…

The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as it often does. It's fallacious to assume that there are no inborn differences between men and women. It's equally fallacious to insist (as many do and will, probably citing this study) that there are vast and uncrossable gulfs between men and women, and that anyone who crosses those gulfs anyway must be some sort of deviant. Humans are complex, the product of both nature and…

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Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#154
post #87

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I'm disappointed that there's a "Men's Rights" movement. My mother raised me as a "feminist" and part of being a "feminist" was not discriminating against anyone because of their gender. For example, feminists support a boy who wants to play with dolls or a father wants to be a stay-at-home parent. I hate that the label itself is gendered and I wish it would be changed, but the principles of "feminism" include "Men's…

Yes, most will not say that they are for equal rights of men as well. But some have found that a lot of that is just lip service at best. > I hate that the label itself is gendered and I wish it would be changed, but the principles of "feminism" include "Men's Rights". Breaking "Men's Rights" out as a separate topic only muddies the waters, dilutes the efforts for the same goals, and introduces a divide that shouldn'…

I've called this the Ayn Rand fallacy before. According to rumor[1], Ayn Rand believed that she lived her entire life based upon the principles of rationality, therefore if you disagreed with her you were irrational. Ayn Rand didn't like beards or Mozart, so the men in her circle learned to shave and no one expressed a fondness for Mozart in fear of being deemed irrational. But condemning a bearded man for being irrational because Ayn Rand doesn't like beards says more about Ayn Rand than the bearded man.

Likewise, feminists believe their ideology is based upon the principle of not hating women, therefore disagreement with their ideology amounts to misogyny. But they aren't revealing their interlocutors as misogynists; they're revealing themselves as Ayn Rand.

[1] There is considerable controversy about the lengths to which Ayn Rand would go to condemn people for their irrationality due to personal disagreements, but treat this story as a parable; its literal truth is beside the point.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a feminist-led campaign on wikipedia to get tripe like this added to articles on human sexual differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sex_differences_in... "The smaller difference in lower body strength may be due to the fact that during childhood, both males and females frequently exercise their leg muscles during activities like running, walking, and playing. Males, however, are socially pres…

Isn't that actually true? Speaking as a male who feels no particular need for higher upper body strength, I've certainly felt pressured at times. Somehow my sister never is.

Testosterone is an independent factor in muscle mass and accounts for the majority in strength difference. Also, muscles in the upper body have a higher androgen receptor count and therefore respond greater to serum testosterone levels and physical stimuli.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#156
post #152
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You weren't downvoted for making the tautological observation that men and women aren't the same but for attempting to use science as a cloak for shoddy reasoning: There's no question that things like hormone levels are likely to have some sort of effect but your response begs huge questions such as how low-level differences affect incredibly complex higher-level processes like cognition, how much a skill like progra…

Maybe you should educate yourself in general evolution, and evolution of sex in particular, and then figure out the obvious: men and women gravitate toward different things. Women are (generally) not discriminated in tech, they just don't gravitate towards it. They are not discriminated on HN, or in Trekkie conventions, they are practically not present there. They don't play computer games, they do social networking.…

Your ignorance of science is matched only by your willingness to flaunt your ignorance of what women do or do not want to do (try listening more). I'm just glad gender is known to be such a small component of intelligence — otherwise we'd have to worry about your posts reflecting on men in general.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#157
post #132

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There's a distinct difference between disapproving of men who dress as women and believing that they shouldn't be allowed to do so .

You think there's a lot of people who wouldn't want a cross-dresser in their church, but would allow their sons to wear dresses?

What about a kilt?

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#158
post #39

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I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your comment actually means. What gulfs? Men and women are complimentary. The masculine and the feminine interplay between each other and cooperate toward mutual benefit. There is no gulf. I reject the notion that we somehow have to eliminate the feminine and the masculine, to be left with some sort of androgynous average. That's just nonsense. And yes, some men can be feminine and…

No, there aren't, but a lot of people are firmly convinced that there are. Feminism and "political correctness" and your alleged "angry emotional mobs" exist as a necessary backlash to the (historically overwhelmingly popular) idea that Man and Woman are as complimentary and irreconcilable as opposite poles of a magnet. These people don't just assert that "boys, on average, prefer trucks to dolls," but that boys shou…

I actually disagree with you both with regard to the complementary nature of the sexes and the basis of feminism. I will deal with feminism first because I think some historical background is worth looking at.

The typical narrative we are fed regarding women's rights is that women decided one day they didn't like being oppressed as they had through the ages and fought for equality which they got. The problem is that this narrative doesn't actually work. It supposes a sort of oppression a few centuries ago that is really hard to support on the evidence, and it supposes an equality today which is just as far off. Also not all feminists have adopted this narrative. Many post-modernist feminists (for example Robbie Davis-Floyd) have not.

It is worth remembering that Jefferson's campaign called Adams (in 1800, LONG before the 19th Amendment) "a hideous hermaphroditical figure, lacking the force and firmness of a man, and the gentleness and sensibility of a woman." Far from the oppressed narrative here, this quote strongly suggests women having important roles in the political discourse. We see this also from letters in the day. Similarly there were whole industries dominated by women before they were industrialized (interestingly depending on time and place this included not only textile manufacture but also brewing, midwifery, and more). So before industrialization, women had businesses. They were entrepreneurs, and strong active players in both politics and the economy.

What happened though is that the women's industries were the ones which were industrialized most heavily and consequently between this and urbanization women were kicked out of the economy. I strongly suspect also that women's political institutions (which were relatively informal but no less effective) were also destroyed. Feminism, women's suffrage, etc. to my mind is a reaction to that sort of inequality that industrialization brought.

On to the issue of complementary natures. The question I think is the question of an aversion to essentialism which is generally seen as constraining. This is, I think, a relatively recent phenomenon. Essentialism which presupposes that women are by nature both more gentle and sensible than men, but that men are more predictable is not so oppressive and that's the sort of essentialism one sees in pre-industrial America. This was not new. Chris Faraone in his excellent study "Ancient Greek Love Magic" talks a lot about drama and love spell formulas in ancient Greece in terms of complementary forms of misogyny and misandry (and contrary to what the male Greek writers thought, women had a lot of power in ancient Greece).

Of course the truth is probably more abstract than was seen by any time and place, but some patterns are unavoidable. If women's political work is behind the scenes, then reliability and keeping one's word becomes very specifically an important male trait (because it is what assures a woman that her interests will be protected), and it means that men largely navigate a social world created by the social entanglements of women.

The complementary natures are not "stay at home and raise kids" vs "go accomplish stuff" but rather "working together and socially" vs "going off by oneself to work alone." This one pattern is extremely common.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#159
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feminists believe that traditional female behavior is bad/useless and needs to be eliminated. We tell girls that to be worthwhile, they need to live lives like men. I never understood this. If people are happy and productive in traditional roles, why do they need to be eliminated?

That's the popular strawman, not what (most) feminists believe. Feminism* teaches that women (and men) should be allowed to do whatever they want, whether that's stay home with the kids or run a corporation; as opposed to "traditional" values that dictate strictly gender-segregated life paths. Yes, I'm sure you can find feminists who think that blah blah blah whatever. Every group, movement, and party on Earth has fr…

Feminists give their girls toys typically associated with males and male professions. They seem mortified that their girls might want to be veterinarians, teachers, nurses, or mothers. Thereby, they devalue all the women who have acted like women in the past.

No dolls for you, little girl. If you have a Barbie, it better be the one with a computer, web developer Barbie. How about you put down that tutu, and put on these mechanic overalls instead?

This isn't a hypothetical. I have a friend with a strong education who wants to be a teacher. Her parents told her they would be disappointed if she did that. It's an inappropriate profession for an ambitious female, even if it is what she's passionate about.

We tell girls to work 80 hours a week. Forget about a family, unless you can squeeze it in somewhere in your late 30s. And pick up a nice male profession, like programming. Don't even think about being a housewife or a yoga instructor.

The message is to act like boys, not useless girls.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#160
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll said! Also, we should be careful not to impose new restrictive social conditioning while eliminating the legacy conditioning. We will never entirely succeed, but we should try. (In the same way that one can't drive 100% straight but one should still make a good effort.) Once one's movement for justice has crossed the line, where there are apologetics for the abandonment of that effort, it is then creating injus…

Oh, you Marxists and your never ending quest to "eliminate" this or that from the society. The human genes haven't changed in the past 10,000 years. There is nothing you can change that will not dive back into the previous state with some social unrest or crisis.

s/Marxists/Progressives/

Marx was a progressive (i.e. he saw history as an endless march towards progress). But not all progressives are Marxists.

If you buy the myth of progress, then eliminating divisions in society and traditional institutions like strong families is good because it is good for that sort of individualism which supports a modern corporate economy. on the other hand, if you don't buy it, then you might start asking why family businesses and expecting to retire with the kids are so bad, and why we sacrifice family on the alter of individualism.....

I consider myself to be on the "light side" of post-modernism, namely that side which looks to the premodern past for truth (not the dark side which tends to discount all knowledge).

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