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Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

theguardian.com

151–160 of 216 posts

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think I read that more than 50% of the nuclear plants currently being built are in China. That is a big way that they will eventually combat this problem.

That is disheartening. For us, that is.

No, you seem to be misinformed.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has there been any long-term research done on the health effects of particulate pollution? I was in Beijing last winter when the air pollution was nearing record highs, and every time I blew my nose after returning from being outside, it would be full of black mucus. That has to be a wakeup call. In addition, when I returned to the states (Chicago), even the air around O'Hare Airport - probably one of the more pollut…

I usually get my fair bit of black mucus in Central London. Not sure what that means but some places don't smell that good. For example, Queen's Gate road in Kensington has a very strong smell of gas.

That's your nose doing its job. The whole point of the nasal passages and mucus is to filter the air, the good thing about this filter is that it's easy to replace.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#154
post #115
post #67

There's also a lack of understanding on the effects of this pollution, especially as it becomes more regular. I worked and lived in China for 7 years and just getting parents to close the windows of an obstetric hospital with newborns was difficult enough. There is a belief that "fresh air" is always better than what is in the room. When I asked nurses about the public health impact of this pollution on children, the…

Had the exact same problem with my parents in New Delhi. Father was suffering from lung disease. Wanted to sit outside on the balcony - fresh air, apparently. I tried to explain to him that the air is laden with dangerous levels of particulate pollutants. He didn't care. He died earlier this year. PM10/2.5 levels continue to be disastrous (1900+/700+ on some days especially around Diwali). Mother still likes to open…

But does closing windows really help? I mean sure, short term it slows down the exchange of air between the inside and outside, so it'll be helpful if there's a sudden spike that goes away. But if the pollution is a chronic problem, and it certainly is in Shanghai and New Delhi, then eventually the equilibrium will equalize and the air inside will be just as bad.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#155
post #66
post #61

What did the cities look like in the US and Europe during parts of the Industrial Revolution? I cant imagine it was as persistent and thick as some parts of China.

As already mentioned in the thread the London "pea soupers" were as bad, or worse, than the pictures we see here. Google image search for ["pea souper"] for images from 1950s London.

Here is a good link in case anyone is interested.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2243732/Pea-souper-k...

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#156
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A recent Stuttgart University report (commissioned by Greenpeace) estimated 22,000 premature deaths per year in the EU alone from coal-fired power stations. [1] I've seen estimates in the US of 10-20,000 annually depending on the source. e.g. [2], [3]. As someone who lives in a city state so small that the coal-fired power stations are literally next door to housing, I too wish there was more attention given…

Don't forget that burning coal releases more radioactivity into the environment than nuclear power (because of trace amounts of uranium).

This is where the marketing of various energy options comes into play. The discussion might be different if it was "burning uranium laced coal" vs "controlled nuclear generation"

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#157
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it possible for you to breathe the air in the surrounding areas? (Lantau, Macau, etc)

Last time I was back in April of this year, Lantau was a little better but realistically still not good enough to consider living there, much less bringing up kids. I ended up feeling out of breath crossing the road. I haven't been back to Macau since I was a kid though, so it looks very different now (Thanks to Mr Ho.) My grandfather grew up in HK too. He passed away last summer, struck down by a rather horrible res…

Thanks for the info. My condolences for your home land and family.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think I read that more than 50% of the nuclear plants currently being built are in China. That is a big way that they will eventually combat this problem.

That is disheartening. For us, that is.

How does that 50% stack up against how much power they use compared to all other countries that have nuclear power available to them? Wikipedia has China's power usage in 2008 as just below the US's, but growing much faster. It also has much more of their power coming from coal in 2011 (46%, to 13%). It makes sense to me that China would be expanding their nuclear power faster than anybody else right now. Of course it would be nice if we would pick up the pace too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#159
This could amuse me, but it saddens me, of course. The reason this could almost amuse me is that I remember a conversation in 1982 in Taipei, soon after my first visit to China, with a student from France. He too had just been to China, and he thought China was a wonderful place, "Because it has no air pollution." (Compared to 1982 Taiwan, yeah, the P.R.C. had very little pollution because it had very little industrial production. I have never been to France, so I don't know if he was also making a comparison to 1982 France by that comment.) I wish that China (and, for that matter, India) had made it a national development goal to grow in an environmentally friendly way. Once, we didn't know technologies for producing industrial output and raising prosperity without producing quite a bit of pollution along the way, but China (and, again, India) could have learned from the mistakes of other countries and the new technologies they developed to build up output without adding so much to pollution.

Today, Taipei is remarkably clean. I was stunned in 2001, when I last lived there as a permanent resident, by a visitor from Ukraine who arrived in Taiwan after visiting Hong Kong. He commented that he liked Taiwan better than Hong Kong because it was cleaner. I was stunned by that comment because the last time I visited Hong Kong (before retrocession to China), no one would have said so. Hong Kong is downwind of China, and maybe is not as cleaned up anymore now that it is under Chinese rule. Taiwan under democratization has become very clean indeed (although it too is downwind of China). Politicial pluralization through a free press and free elections (an advantage India already has) and effective rule by law (an advantage India is developing) seem all over the world to help countries prosper in a more environmentally sustainable manner. I wish China well in developing democracy and rule by law, and in any event to enjoy clean air sooner rather than later.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#160
post #16

I wonder how this compares to the worst smogs experienced in London and elsewhere before the West got its act together with regard to particulate pollution. Apparently the Great Smog of 1952 killed on the order of 10000 people in just a few days. I'm not sure many young people nowadays realize how horrible the situation was just half a century ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952

I'm not sure many young people nowadays realize how horrible the situation was just half a century ago. This is a great point. We've made so much progress in this area that "pollution" can seem like an abstraction. This is something we should be impressing upon our children, in a more serious way than stories about walking to school uphill in the snow both ways, etc. I was two years old when this picture was taken in…

That isn't brown air; it's a brown print. That's a sepia print of a black and white photo of white steam coming out of chimneys artificially crowded together by a long telephoto lens, taken at sunset, and excluding the sky as much as possible. Imagine another photo taken from the same spot, with a wide-angle lens that shows mostly sky and a bridge going off for miles, even the distant cars clearly visible through clear air shining in the mid-day sun as if on their way to the beach, printed blue-and-white instead of brown-and-white. Dramatically different emotional impact from the same scene. It's almost as if The Atlantic had some sort of agenda.

Those images of Shanghai (and London 1952, and Beijing and Hong Kong and, occasionally, Singapore) are the real thing, looking like scenes from a forest fire but downtown in a major city.

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