I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…
"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?
Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
151–160 of 271 posts
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
All you have to do is ask yourself, if you were getting this basic sum, would you be content to do nothing? The answer is probably no. I would do something, some kind of job, as would many people. If only for their sense of self worth / self esteem. I believe that almost everyone would get a job even though a basic income means they don't have to. Also keep in mind, that no matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be pe…
You might be surprised. A friend of mine who is a very smart guy got laid of from his job with a bunch of redundancy money. All he did was sit and play WoW until the money started to run out and then went out and got another job. If you can do whatever you want, you will probably want to do stuff that makes you happy. One of those things will probably not be reporting to a boss or person to whom you are accountable b…
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#153As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…
You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. Once you've established a "protection money" system, establishing their "right" to your money & property, they are now incentivized to demand - and take - more. Panem et circenses is the last stage of polite society; the cost eventually becomes unbearable as fewer work and more expect comfort & leisure for nothing…
This seems to imply that it's entirely within the recipients power. Do you truly believe that all it takes is hard work and perseverance to escape poverty? That there is no randomness inherent in success?
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#154Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#155First, this program would not create additional welfare dependants. Instead, it would transfer SNAP recepients, able individuals living on social security disability payments (http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/09/how_to_be_mean_to_you...), to a system that is market-based, less expensive, and (relative to the current system) creates incentives to join and/or stay in the labour force (you don't lose eligibility for this system the moment you get a job).
Second, overall welfare programs for the poor do not cost Americans nearly as much as entitlements for the middle classes (medicare, ACA, social security, etc...). So if you're a doctrinaire libertarian/conservative who is unhappy that any taxation/wealth transfer exist, then you should work towards eliminating these programs before going after SNAP, ACA, or opposing reform like this.
There's been multiple structural shifts over the last century: the second industrial revolution, de-industrialization, and now job-less recoveries (see Tyler Cowen's "The Average is Over" and "Great Stagnation" for discussion of the later).
As nearly all jobs work becomes knowledge work (as many have -- e.g., move to CNC for metal and wood working), each technology change means a bulk of technical knowledge becomes obsolete. This leads to a bimodal employment structure: those with the right technological knowledge (as well as those at/perceived to be at the top of the talent curve) are rewarded extraordinarily (driving up housing prices), while those without the appropriate knowledge and who are unable to re-adjust fast enough (e.g., currently there's a resurgence of C/C++ programming, but yet we've got a generation of programmers who have never bothered to learn manual memory management) have to settle for lower wages until they're at a point where the salary they will need to convince them to (again) take up full-time employment will not be a salary any employer will pay. As a result you'll see many workers working just enough to get by (remote freelance/consulting work) and then eventually drop out of the labour pool altogether. A wise welfare state policy should then be designed not to punish those with volatile incomes and encourage continuous labour pool participation (until the workers gained the technical skills needed for higher wage jobs, or perhaps the skills they've already had have suddenly become in-demand).
Eventually, I think this work itself out: settlement of inland west, cheaper housing construction techniques, a general socialization of the values of an entrepreneurial workplace (vs. workplace of "company-men"/"company-women") means there will once again be a middle class. However, I am very much scared of the many stupid things an electorate desperate "to do something" coupled with rent-seeking businesses might end up doing (that will cause serious long-term damage to this country) in the meantime. Any move from a system that is a mess of regulation (navigable best by those with "pull") to one that is more market-based would help.
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. Once you've established a "protection money" system, establishing their "right" to your money & property, they are now incentivized to demand - and take - more. Panem et circenses is the last stage of polite society; the cost eventually becomes unbearable as fewer work and more expect comfort & leisure for nothing…
Right, and looking at stats like murder rates, incarceration numbers, etc. the US system is clearly working and superior. I can walk any street at 2am in Vienna without looking over my shoulder. Oakland? Philly? A personal gun doesn't stop anyone. Fantasy from lala land.
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
The study is interesting, but it was performed in Canada in the 1970s. I would be interested in seeing it performed now in the various 'target markets', with so many more distractions available, especially ones targeted at the teenager who just reached working age (i.e., video games). I really believe we would see different results. EDIT: I play a few video games, hence why I know how distracting they are. Speaking o…
"Distractions" have existed forever. Comic books, baseball cards, marbles, pogs, etc. have always been around for teenagers to blow their money on and spend way too much time with. Saying that the existence of video games has fundamentally changed the economy as a whole seems wrong. Moreover, if that were the case, we would have already seen it. A mincome wouldn't change that. Yet, right now, teens are one of the mos…
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#158One question: has anyone else ever done the math on this? Let's suppose we have a basic income of $1,000 per month per citizen. This is barely enough to get by in someplace like eastern Washington and not enough to get by in someplace like Seattle but it's a nice round number so let's go with it. The US population is about 300 million. But let's assume only adult citizens receive basic income. If you want children yo…
I read through a breakdown in one of the Basic Income books, of what it would cost just to get a $10,000/year basic income. Here's just some of the changes that would be needed:
* cut military spending by a third; * get rid of ethanol subsidies; * get rid of mortgage interest tax breaks; * get rid of "married filing jointly/separately" filing status, make everyone file just for themselves
And that's just the ones that jumped out at me. Virtually all tax loopholes would have to be gotten rid of, and more. All for just the $10K/year basic income level.
So, just as a question of the political cost to implement, Basic Income seems like a laughable non-starter.
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#159The problem is, its 14+ different programs doing it - if we make ONE program, we've just cut how many administrators and bureaucrats out of the loop saving however many dollars in overhead - plus all sorts of different infrastructure systems to administer and pay it all.
It's logical common sense this program would work more cheaply (and possibly better) just thru overhead savings. Means tested welfare is wasteful.
Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nice straw man, but no - I'm not concerned about the poor who work for a living, they genuinely tend to want to improve their lives and their families lives - that's why they are willing to work 40 hours or more a week for barely more money than could be gained on welfare. I've been there. I'm worried about the children of middle and upper-income families deciding that 'mincome' is good enough. I have yet to see any…
Just look at the children today who have parents that are wealthy enough to support their children through adulthood. Most of them, I suspect, go through college and then work, either in the family business, some business of their own (possibly a boutique business that can never earn a profit but still pays rent and tax and maybe some salaries), or in some kind of charity/fundraising business. With mincome, more chil…
The clear implication is, having a little bit of money to fall back on helps people build their lives.