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Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

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Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#151

Post by smcl »

purplelobster wrote: post #115
jpadkins wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so when is sweden going to accept open immigration from all of the poorer neighbors? I'll be impressed if it can keep social cohesion while allowing immigrants to make a better life for themselves. It's easy for an elite society to stay closed and elite. SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth.

Did you just call the American poor "some of the poorest people on earth?" Or were you talking about immigrants? One town in Sweden (Södertälje) has received more Iraqi refugees alone than all of the US has, the country that actually started the war. Sweden's immigrants are actually some of the poorest people on earth, mainly refugees of war and people who would be prosecuted/killed if they returned to their home cou…

This is something people frequently ignore, and point to the areas of the US being culturally diverse as an excuse for poor school results or high crime. This annoys me slightly as it carries an implication that there are some ethnic backgrounds which are inherently bad\stupid\poor\whatever.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#152

Post by roel_v »

jpttsn wrote: post #140
pedalpete wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though statistically you are correct, I'd like to see a comparison of not only current tax rates, but tax rates compared to debt/deficits. The US may be collecting less taxes, but if they're just putting the remainder on credit, then they aren't really any further ahead (and possibly behind). I did a quick search, but didn't come up with anything.

Sweden collects high taxes even compared to other nations. When it comes to debt, the US is the outlier.

Actually the US debt-to-GDP ration isn't all that bad, and its deterioration (or increase, depending on interpretation...) of the last decade is largely due to spending on war, not due to fiscal or socio-economic factors (that is to say, this is spending that can 'easily' be cut). Whereas the other countries with ratios similar to that of the US have historically not had much better figures, and their deficits are due to enshrined socio-economic structures.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#153

Post by vidarh »

hvidgaard wrote: post #142
yason wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland, neighbouring Sweden, we also have more different containers for different trash than you'd care for. It takes time to learn all that and when you've finally sorted out all your trash properly to different bins, you sit on your balcony and look at the garbage truck reversing to the yard. The guy goes inside the garbage shed and brings out one bin of certain color, empties it in the truck, and drives away t…

It depends on the scale. In Denmark, while we can do it privately by driving to recycle stations - highly inefficient as you mention. The sorting in urban areas however, is mostly glass, paper (and the like), and general waste - it does not matter if a truck picks this up, because he would have to do so as general waste anyway, if it wasn't sorted. Many larger stores also have facilities for batteries, but I'm unsure…

I live in London, and here recycling is largely driven by cost cutting: Landfills are limited, and there are severe restrictions on incinerators, so many councils use recycling as a way to drive down their costs for waste disposal.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#154

Post by vidarh »

dredmorbius wrote: post #78

This story illustrates both the upsides and limitations of trash-to-energy programs. On the positive side: many sources will pay you to take their trash from them. There's nothing like free energy. On the negative side: - Sweden's exhaustion of its own sources of trash show that the concept is inherently limited, even in an abundant consumption economy. That is, one which is producing ample waste streams. As the arti…

So essentially, waste to energy should be seen primarily as a way to reduce the waste problem, not as a way to produce energy. The energy is just a nice side effect that helps to make it attractive to reduce landfill usage.

So it still serves a useful purpose. It's just not going to solve our energy issues.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#155

Post by fetbaffe »

jpttsn wrote: post #144
fetbaffe wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But now you are saying that has do with the size of your wallet (or rather lack of), which is true, but that does not mean we are basing it on academic merit. That is jumping to conclusions and assumptions. What is the academic merits to become a teacher today? Zero? Edit: Added extra paragraph.

> That is jumping to conclusions and assumptions. Sure. I didn't arrive at this through reasoning, it's a contingency. I hope I didn't leave anything non-obvious out: * In most places, you have to afford the school and you need the grades/SAT scores (academic merit). * In Sweden, you don't need to afford the school: you only need the grades/SAT scores (academic merit).

But I'm saying that is not based on academic merit when anyone can attend.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#156

Post by rotskoff »

3pt14159 wrote: post #53
gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

The suggestion that Sweden is homogeneous is too common and simply false. I've lived in Stockholm for 6 months and it's a very diverse city. Far more cultural and economic diversity than, say, many Midwestern cities of comparable size. In fact, wikipedia can point you to the facts "As of 2011, Statistics Sweden reported that around 19.6% or 1.858.000 inhabitants of Sweden had foreign background, defined as born abroad or born in Sweden by two parents born abroad." (from "Demographics of Sweden")

What is more, the notion that homogeneity and IQ have anything to do with the capacity of a nation to recycle is both offensive and absurd.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#157

Post by hvidgaard »

vidarh wrote: post #153
hvidgaard wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the scale. In Denmark, while we can do it privately by driving to recycle stations - highly inefficient as you mention. The sorting in urban areas however, is mostly glass, paper (and the like), and general waste - it does not matter if a truck picks this up, because he would have to do so as general waste anyway, if it wasn't sorted. Many larger stores also have facilities for batteries, but I'm unsure…

I live in London, and here recycling is largely driven by cost cutting : Landfills are limited, and there are severe restrictions on incinerators, so many councils use recycling as a way to drive down their costs for waste disposal.

That is political incentive though, they aren't quite as strict here. I think, no matter how we do it, it will be more expensive to recycle. That is, unless there is a political decision to tax waste burning/landfills, or resources become very scarce.

But it really is a shame, because high density areas like Copenhagen, are ideal for pushing recycling. You get quantities, and you don't have to collect over a large geographical area. So the running cost of collecting is significantly less, and you can build larger and more efficient facilities to process and recycle the waste.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#158

Post by prawn »

millstone wrote: post #127
prawn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which case you charge for rubbish collection on a combination of weight/volume and make it a premium for unsorted refuse. That gives people a choice. Pay the premium if they want someone else to do it, or take extra care themselves and save a bit of money. I think in Paris (?) they have some underground storage for recycling on street corners. Someone was telling me about that when I was there. In New Zealand (and…

Does requiring people to sort their trash actually work? What sort of feedback and enforcement is in place? Where I live in California, we are given a large recyclables bin and a small trash bin, with the option to pay more for a larger trash bin. This sounds like an incentive to recycle, but it's a perverse one. If I were to just put all my trash in the recycle bin, there would be no consequences at all for me, beca…

Yes, to the point that people take pride in it. Colleagues suffer minor, humorous ridicule for putting something in the wrong bin and there are conversations about plastic type 5 vs plastic type 2. One guy is designated "Recycle Man" for leading office efforts. Under most desks in the office are two bins, one for cardboard/paper/etc. I don't know anyone who even thinks about it as a chore now.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#159

Post by lmm »

fetbaffe wrote: post #155
jpttsn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is jumping to conclusions and assumptions. Sure. I didn't arrive at this through reasoning, it's a contingency. I hope I didn't leave anything non-obvious out: * In most places, you have to afford the school and you need the grades/SAT scores (academic merit). * In Sweden, you don't need to afford the school: you only need the grades/SAT scores (academic merit).

But I'm saying that is not based on academic merit when anyone can attend.

Not anyone can - only those who can get the grades. And while grades are an imperfect measure of academic merit they're the best one we have.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#160

Post by lmm »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #131
3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

So on the IQ thing, is that because they properly care for the physical and mental well-being of their children, expectant mothers and parents? Or is it because they are some kind of Aryan super-race?

It's politically very hard to study the first hypothesis scientifically, and practically impossible for the second. So we don't know, and won't until society has matured to the point we can face these questions.

(I understand what little evidence we have points to maternal health/diet/wellbeing as the single biggest causal factor. Handouts of food - or simply money - to mothers in the latter part of pregnancy are the most effective intervention we know. But again, we know very little and it's very difficult to find anyone who can study these effects from a position of neutrality)

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