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Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

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Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#131
post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

So on the IQ thing, is that because they properly care for the physical and mental well-being of their children, expectant mothers and parents? Or is it because they are some kind of Aryan super-race?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#132
burning trash for energy is not really efficient. It's better than leaving it on a landfill but it is not the same as recycling. A one-off reuse is still far from perfect situation where most material can be reused (with let's say 10% loss of material in each cycle). Congratulations to Sweden for being better than everyone else but there's still room for improvement!

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, emission from dioxin has been reduced by 99% since the 1980s beacuse of better filtering and much higher temperatures when burning the garbage. From Naturvårdsverket (Swedish Environmental Protection Agency) In Swedish http://www.naturvardsverket.se/Stod-i-miljoarbetet/Vaglednin... Google translate http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=...

much higher temperatures How's the nitrogen oxide levels, then?

There exist a NOx tax (since 1992) for polluting the air with nitrogen oxides when burning garbage. But how much a furnace pollutes when doing that, not sure at all.

The amount of polluted nitrogen oxides to the level of produced energy unit has dropped some the last few years, but not much.

The general nitrogen oxide levels in Sweden has been reduced since the 90s according to this source

In Swedish http://www.miljomal.se/Miljomalen/Alla-indikatorer/Indikator...

"Från 1990 till 2011 har utsläppen minskat från cirka 270 000 ton till cirka 145 500 ton. Det är en minskning på 46 procent."

"From 1990 to 2011, emissions have been reduced from about 270 000 tonnes to around 145 500 tonnes. This is a decrease of 46 percent."

Google translate http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=...

The source is from Miljömål (Environment Goal),site runned by Swedish Environmental Protection Agency

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#134
post #12

For a different perspective I found this older article which ponders the economic impact of forcing 9 million people to spend time and energy sorting their trash: http://mises.org/daily/2855

That article is biased and full of exaggerations (and possibly also outright errors). I live inside the city in Stockholm and have lived both in a suburb and a small town in another part of Sweden in my life. No one I've met spend much time "cleaning and sorting" their garbage. Sure, we might rinse out our cans and milk cartons before putting them in their respective bags underneath the sink, but that takes probably less than three seconds, and we do it mostly so that it won't smell. I've never met anyone that separates the paper from cans. Everyone I know would laugh at such ideas.

Furthermore, the kinds of things we recycle from day to day do not consist of more than 6 categories. Two colors of glass, metal (cans mostly), cartons, paper, plastic. Everyone I know collects this in their own home in paper bags, and then leaves them at a collection point close to their house when they get full. And of course, we don't normally take an extra trip to do this. I leave it on my way to the subway, other people might leave them when they take the car to work. It's really not much of an extra workload. I'm guessing I spend 15 minutes a month on my recycling.

Then we have more rare trash. Electronics, batteries, light bulbs, wood, paint etc. For the suburbs and small towns they have larger recycling plants in each municipality which you can drive to. They have shipping containers where you dump your old bikes, tv's, your large pine tree that you cut down to get some more sun in your yard, etc. A typical family might visit this place one to three times a year to dump some more hazardous or clunky trash.

If you live in an apartment complex (and possibly don't have access to a car) there's usually a room in the complex for all of these things. They have the plastic, glass, metal, batteries and electronics containers close to your own apartment.

For me who live in the city and don't have access to a car, there is actually a truck that comes around a few times a year for me to deposit these things. It has a few collection points close to me (within walking distance) and sends out a text message to my phone a few weeks before they're coming, besides having a schedule online.

Having been raised in this type of a recycling system, I'm always amazed by people, even in Sweden, who think it's too cumbersome. Sure, it happens that I forget to empty my recycling bins at the collection points some times, and then I do throw cartons and cans in my regular garbage (which from what I know is not illegal, btw). But in general there really isn't any noticeable overhead.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#135
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

Regarding schools: the "Free Schools" are quite unusual, almost all universities and certainly the top ones are run by the state and free, and people are accepted based on academic merit. I went to arguably the best engineering physics program in Sweden; it was free, and they paid me a $250 stipend per month, the rest of money needed to live was borrowed at a low rate. It is true that Sweden has cut services a lot in…

1) Nothing is free. We pay the most taxes in the world. 2) We don't accept based on academic merit. We accept based on government unemployment programs.

Edit: Spello

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#136
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big factor in homelessness is also just weather. You get far more homeless people in a location with year-long homogeneously nice weather like SF, because you actually won't die being homeless. Swedish winters are harsh, and the country's not so big that these people can just go somewhere nicer for the winter. I don't have any stats (does anyone?), but I'm certain a good proportion of the homeless in SF arrived fro…

I still don't like the regimented age-based education heirarchy, which Europe still subscribes to. Beyond basic skills for human interaction (an understanding of the dominant language, basic arithmetic, necessary social skills like knowing traffic signs, what emergency lights mean what, how to calculate taxes, how interest rates work, and some basic history of the world and the local country) the most important thing…

Theory of education systems is really complicated, and something I tried to read a lot about, and hypothesize about. I used to think along your exact lines as well. However, this is a very instrumentalist [1] approach to education.

I don't think this is terrible, but it has costs associated with it that will become apparent further down the road -- similar to how the existing education system born from the industrial revolution's needs has proven to. The system you have suggested has a prominent lack of means to introduce people to advanced theoretical physics, economics research, astronomy, abstract mathematics, etc, you get the picture. A generation without a hint of knowledge in the non-practical fields will function fine in the short-term, but it will lead to a stagnation of advancement until an external trigger brings it back about.

Essentially, as I'm guessing you're a hacker-hustler-type, you see the primary course of education to promote passion in "doing," and that's my first instinctual priority for education as well. But classically, education has had a role to do much more than just that (albeit extremely inefficiently) for many generations, and it could be detrimental to focus on only one educational priority of "learn to do things well", with a potential to lose being able to gain exposure to other kinds of intellectual commitments. Maybe it won't happen, but it's a real risk. Who knows what we may have lost already from generations past?

Of course, everyone in the world agrees that the "sitting behind desks competing on test scores forgetting all the knowledge and then stumbling through relearning the real world from scratch" model of today's education is broken and pretty stupid, but it's not that straightforward to fix, unfortunately. Your suggestion is definitely something a single school could adopt (and broad institutionalized educational requirements should be abolished), and I would love to send my future kids there over anything that exists today.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentalism

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#137
post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

In Finland, neighbouring Sweden, we also have more different containers for different trash than you'd care for. It takes time to learn all that and when you've finally sorted out all your trash properly to different bins, you sit on your balcony and look at the garbage truck reversing to the yard. The guy goes inside the garbage shed and brings out one bin of certain color, empties it in the truck, and drives away to the next address only to come back a few days later to do the same. When your mind accidentally multiplies this activity by the number of different colored bins you have there, you begin to imagine the local emissions produced by these different trucks circling around all the time, emptying one type of trash each. There are so many bins that each of them must be rather small, so the buffering capacity of the garbage sheds causes excess traffic and pollution due to regular visits by the garbage trucks. Further, some things are collected in certain recycling points, such as non-returnable glass waste like jars and olive oil bottles, which means people take them there with private cars!

For a long time we used to have general waste and compostables. That was quite understandable because you really want the compostables into a separate heap because of...well, composting and you can produce bio gas off composts if the percentage of decomposing waste is high enough. But I'm pretty sure the separation of glass, wood, papers, cardboards etc. could be done in some automated way that reaches a good enough success rate that would make it economically and ecologically viable.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#138
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding schools: the "Free Schools" are quite unusual, almost all universities and certainly the top ones are run by the state and free, and people are accepted based on academic merit. I went to arguably the best engineering physics program in Sweden; it was free, and they paid me a $250 stipend per month, the rest of money needed to live was borrowed at a low rate. It is true that Sweden has cut services a lot in…

1) Nothing is free. We pay the most taxes in the world. 2) We don't accept based on academic merit. We accept based on government unemployment programs. Edit: Spello

> We don't accept based on academic merit. We accept based on government unemployment programs

That's overly pessimistic.

Compared to most of the world, the fact that the size of your wallet doesn't directly determine which schools we can go to is remarkable.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

So on the IQ thing, is that because they properly care for the physical and mental well-being of their children, expectant mothers and parents? Or is it because they are some kind of Aryan super-race?

Probably not.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has cut services and taxes more than any other western country in the past decade. They still have some of the highest taxes in the world and an extensive welfare state.

Though statistically you are correct, I'd like to see a comparison of not only current tax rates, but tax rates compared to debt/deficits. The US may be collecting less taxes, but if they're just putting the remainder on credit, then they aren't really any further ahead (and possibly behind). I did a quick search, but didn't come up with anything.

Sweden collects high taxes even compared to other nations. When it comes to debt, the US is the outlier.
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