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Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#151

Post by SkyMarshal »

MattDL wrote: post #110
martincmartin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

Trust me, laziness is a real thing; even when everything in the world points towards doing the work being the best thing for you, you just can't be bothered.

>even when everything in the world points towards doing the work being the best thing for you, you just can't be bothered.

This is also a perfect description of depression.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#152

Post by GFischer »

embolism wrote: post #150
brador wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. It does not account for spouse or children.

Please do elaborate though - that figure seems about 10-20x too low.

Maybe it assumes you already have housing, and that you live in a country with socialized medicine.

I can see myself retiring with maybe U$ 500.000, though I'd like to have more to afford better healthcare than my country's default (which is MUCH better than the U.S. average, but much worse than what you can buy with money).

What my grandparents did was to rent 3 or 4 properties, and live off that. They did so for about 20 years.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#153

Post by 13b9f227ecf0 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #125
jmduke wrote: post #4

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

I think what makes hikikomori unusual (and the pattern is certainly spreading beyond Japan, into Europe post-2008 as well) is that it doesn't fit the traditional shut-in pattern. Being a shut-in is nothing new, but most of those are either very old people (who are shut in for partially physical reasons) or people with severe agoraphobia (who can't leave their houses without having panic attacks) or biologically-roote…

I don't think corporatism is the right word as it has distinct political connotations. I think you're just talking about mass industrial employment.

I think the important dynamic you're hinting at is the failure of the Protestant Ethic. The Protestant Ethic brings material achievements into measure of your value as a human. This was generally warned against in Catholic and Orthodox theology.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#154

Post by keithflower »

From a medical perspective, I'd worry that many of these folks suffer from major depressive disorder, social anxiety disorder, or obsessive compulsive disorder.

This is not to pathologize behaviors people choose which don't interfere with quality of life, but my gut reaction is that many of those described in the article would benefit from treatment with psychotherapy and/or medication. However, I'm told that significant stigma is attached to seeking evaluation and treatment for such issues in Japan (and obviously elsewhere, including the west).

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#155

Post by embolism »

GFischer wrote: post #152
embolism wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do elaborate though - that figure seems about 10-20x too low.

Maybe it assumes you already have housing, and that you live in a country with socialized medicine. I can see myself retiring with maybe U$ 500.000, though I'd like to have more to afford better healthcare than my country's default (which is MUCH better than the U.S. average, but much worse than what you can buy with money). What my grandparents did was to rent 3 or 4 properties, and live off that. They did so for ab…

What does 'already having housing' mean? It's state provided? Even in a country without property taxes a property you own outright will require maintenance.

500k still seems low but might do it if you don't have rent to pay. I'd still love to hear the original commenter explain his or her reasoning - there might be some useful tips to learn from.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#156

Post by keithpeter »

keithpeter wrote: post #137
jmduke wrote: post #4

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

"hide... ...in dual 2560x1600 monitors" Oh, yes, computers can make people look so busy when really they spend all day what I am doing now. I'm off to the shop to get the tea

I actually meant this seriously, it was not intended to be sarcastic.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#157

Post by diminoten »

mikeash wrote: post #145
MattDL wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, laziness is a real thing; even when everything in the world points towards doing the work being the best thing for you, you just can't be bothered.

Of course it's a real thing. He never said it wasn't. What he said was that it doesn't explain anything, and that's true. Laziness is a symptom , not a cause. It's like diagnosing someone with a "cough". It may be correct, but it's pointless, because it's obvious and tells you absolutely nothing about what to do.

At what point is a personality merely a symptom? If everything about us is a result of our ailments, and all of our ailments have treatments, how does a person know which parts of his personality are him and which aren't? What am "I" then?

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#158

Post by gohrt »

api wrote: post #121
erre wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

80 is the new 60 basically. Tangent: people think life extension will magically materialize with some singularity type event, but in reality it's a slow creeping thing. The single most powerful life extension technology ever developed is the cardiac bypass, for example.

> The single most powerful life extension technology ever developed is the cardiac bypass, for example.

How do you mean that?

http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/03/a-cardiac-conundrum

> Angioplasty can save the lives of heart-attack patients. But for patients with stable coronary disease, who comprise a large share of angioplasty patients? It has not been shown to extend life expectancy by a day

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#159

Post by gwern »

ekianjo wrote: post #32
casual_slacker wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. NHK shows the psychological feelings as more akin to hallucinations, and there isn't really an exploration into the disease. It's more just a story of a happy (but unlikely) sudden recovery.

Well, it's just a fiction so you can't expect it to be super realistic either, but it gives insights as to why the main character ended up this way. I don't think it replaces a proper study of the phenomenon but it's a good place to start with to become acquainted with the everyday life of these people.

> Well, it's just a fiction so you can't expect it to be super realistic either

Why not? The author was apparently a hikikomori, so presumably he knows what he's talking about.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#160

Post by mikeash »

diminoten wrote: post #157
mikeash wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's a real thing. He never said it wasn't. What he said was that it doesn't explain anything, and that's true. Laziness is a symptom , not a cause. It's like diagnosing someone with a "cough". It may be correct, but it's pointless, because it's obvious and tells you absolutely nothing about what to do.

At what point is a personality merely a symptom? If everything about us is a result of our ailments, and all of our ailments have treatments, how does a person know which parts of his personality are him and which aren't? What am "I" then?

That's an excellent question to which I am fairly convinced there is no answer, but it's a good one to think about in any case.
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