Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 363 posts

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#151

Post by betterunix »

brown9-2 wrote: post #102
wavesounds wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if your a whistleblower. What if instead of a domestic spying program he leaked a secret program by his bosses to round up every red haired and freckled person and put them in a concentration camp? Then would you still have to charge him with a crime for revealing a 'secret' program before he could be pardoned and treated as a hero? Of course not, thats ridiculous and so is this.

But he didn't do that. Are you a whistleblower if what you reveal isn't illegal?

Yes, if what you reveal is unethical but legal. Laws are not handed down from the heavens; laws are created by a notoriously corrupt set of human beings (politicians), and can easily become disconnected from morality.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#153

Post by mchusma »

brown9-2 wrote: post #102
wavesounds wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if your a whistleblower. What if instead of a domestic spying program he leaked a secret program by his bosses to round up every red haired and freckled person and put them in a concentration camp? Then would you still have to charge him with a crime for revealing a 'secret' program before he could be pardoned and treated as a hero? Of course not, thats ridiculous and so is this.

But he didn't do that. Are you a whistleblower if what you reveal isn't illegal?

There was a lot of illegal activity, or at least potential illegal activity, uncovered. Most notably perjury by officials, and violation of a FISA strikedown (which the EFF is trying to dig into).

The level of illegality is unclear, because we cannot investigate and the only court that can determine that consists of government officials, in secret, and no oversight. Almost every action they are taking could be completely illegal, we have no way of knowing or assessing.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#154

Post by jsmeaton »

Let's assume this charge is legal and correct for a moment. Why aren't the newspapers (guardian and the post?) and their writers/editors also being charged? Why aren't the newspapers having their paypal and all their bank accounts frozen?

We live in very scary times as far as I'm concerned. The US is prosecuting its own citizens for standing up and saying "what you're doing to the rest of the world is not OK". But if you're a non-US citizen doing the same you just get thrown in Gitmo.

There's outrage about what is being done domestically, but the rest of the world seem to have no way of protesting. As an Australian I should be safe from all of this - but our Government, no doubt, is piggy-backing on everything the US is doing. No one is safe.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#155

Post by betterunix »

rdl wrote: post #66
tptacek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The national security establishment is more or less exempted from the whistleblower statutes.

Going to NSA IG or the PSCI's in Congress are protected (the whole point of NSA IG is internal malfeasance, it's not just for stealing cafeteria trays...). The problem is that route of reporting may be ineffective, and once you start, you'll lose all future access, come under suspicion, and may actually still be charged (the whistleblower stuff helps more with not getting convicted). I was originally thinking "he sho…

"Going to NSA IG or the PSCI's in Congress are protected"

Protected and utterly pointless. Congress already knew what was happening. The NSA's IG is not an unbiased observer.

Unfortunately, the official channels are broken here. You have members of Congress talking about how these revelations are just the tip of the iceberg. That means that they know more, that they know details that will shock people, and that they are doing nothing about it. What good would it do to go to them with this information?

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#156

Post by rdouble »

LoganCale wrote: post #150
rdouble wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could gamble on this topic, my bet would be that there isn't any more interesting information. That said, I am interested in learning what the rest of the information is, so I can make up my own mind about the issue.

Did you miss the new documents published yesterday? They've been all over HN today, and they contradict most everything Obama and the NSA have been saying for the past week.

I didn't find them very revelatory. It just seems like typical CYA spook paperwork. Regarding the government lying, I don't see how that is news, either.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#157

Post by betterunix »

zacharyvoase wrote: post #69
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. In addition, of course, to asking for a complete pardon for Snowden. It also should be noted that any of the Congressional investigations into this mess are perfectly capable of giving Snowden a grant of immunity from prosecution. People ask what to do. There are at least two avenues open to nip this…

The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State, which in this case they have done. I’m wondering how grand juries play into this—the Fifth Amendment states that “no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury” (except for those in the military, which I think he wouldn’t classify as). There’s a great article her…

"The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State"

One would think that, as public servants, their role is to prosecute in the interests of the public at large. That might mean going against the interests of the state, if the state is working against the public.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#158

Post by LoganCale »

rdouble wrote: post #156
LoganCale wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you miss the new documents published yesterday? They've been all over HN today, and they contradict most everything Obama and the NSA have been saying for the past week.

I didn't find them very revelatory. It just seems like typical CYA spook paperwork. Regarding the government lying, I don't see how that is news, either.

The government spent the last week trying to convince the public that they never spy on U.S. citizens and do not store their data.

The documents are a direct authorization from the Attorney General for all the ways in which they are allowed to do exactly that.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#159

Post by genwin »

malandrew wrote: post #148

Personally, I would want him to stand trial on two conditions: (1) He and Glenn Greenwald are allowed to have an open, public televised debate with President Obama, the congressmen that are members of the intelligence committee, and the judges that sit on the FISC court. This would be done in 3 sessions Frost/Nixon style. (2) He is promised fair just treatment, that is made public so that he cannot be subjected to so…

He'd need to get low-cost bail. To the US gov't, fair treatment is solitary confinement, waterboarding, etc.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#160

Post by rdouble »

LoganCale wrote: post #158
rdouble wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't find them very revelatory. It just seems like typical CYA spook paperwork. Regarding the government lying, I don't see how that is news, either.

The government spent the last week trying to convince the public that they never spy on U.S. citizens and do not store their data. The documents are a direct authorization from the Attorney General for all the ways in which they are allowed to do exactly that.

Right, but why is that a surprise?
Post reply on HN